WCOOP Deep Run Hand History Review with DannyN13 (Part 1)
[Total: 14 Average: 8.9/5]
You must sign in to vote
MORE IN THIS SERIES : Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4
WCOOP Deep Run Hand History Review with DannyN13 (Part 1)
MORE IN THIS SERIES : Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4
duggs
at 16minutes if he is 3betting you pretty wide depolarized isnt flatting better than 4betting? you are essentially turning the best hand into a bluff arent you?
duggs
at 32min same thing again with AQo v the UTG open, we have good equity v his opening range but virtually none v his 4betting range and you think he will only 4bet or fold, doesnt this make it a much better spot to flat?
duggs
in general if we are intending to 3b/f and we dont expect them to really flat shouldnt we be doing it with A/K blockers rather than value hands?
Also whats your reasoning for minraising? to induce aggressive action or to weaken/widen our opponents flatting ranges.
Also if/when you play cash do you min raise?
ShortStackJack
I think the reason for the 4 bet here is to narrow the villain’s range. Being a button 3-bet, he could be pretty wide here. His 5 bet range should be pretty tight, and we can fold to it. His flatting range in this spot should be pretty definable as well, making post flop decisions a bit easier.
A bit of a merge as well, if we can get weak-ish hands that flop well to fold, we get the blinds, antes and his 3bet without risking him hitting sets with low pp, and out-flopping us with broadways.
ShortStackJack
Same answer as above, to an extent, but also, since it is such earlier position, flatting here really opens us up to a squeeze by stacks with medium holdings. It’s gonna depend on game flow and how aggro the original opener is, how aggro the table is, etc.
ShortStackJack
The min-range strategy (which I have adopted) has several advantages. It lets you see flops cheap, allowing you to see more flops (though you have to be pretty confident in your post=flop game, obv.), it really disguises your big hands if you are min raising your whole range, it allows you to steal like ali baba, risking less to raise/fold. I find that opponents don’t know what to do what facing your min raise, because they have no way of ranging you, so you get a lot of folds that others won’t, especially when you are observed stacking people with premiums bet the exact same way. It’s especially effective is you can avoid showing down more speculative hands. They seems to think if you are min raising, it must be a monster. Of course, you still get flatted and 3bet a bit, and you need to have a plan if you do. It generates a lot of action.
ShortStackJack
Oh, idk know about cash, as I don;t really play it. I believe that Danny has also stated in previous vids that he doesn’t play cash at all.
duggs
why would we want to narrow his range? surely we want to play pots where his range is significantly weaker than ours and he is going to barrel a large %?
duggs
but again we are bluffing with a portion of our value range thats plays well postflop, and we are in position and squeezes are relatively easy to deal with. if we are 3bet/f here surely Ax or Kx that have blocker value but no equity v his opening range would be more effective rather than wasting AQ?
duggs
I dont really understand how it disguises your hand at all if you min raise at 2x rather than 3x all you do is create bigger SPRs, which makes your cbets and turn and river bets all exponentially smaller.
It also cant both create more action and more fold equity at the same time as they are contrasting effects.
I just dont really understand the reasoning because it just makes it so much harder to get stacks in, get value, or have any reasonable fold equity postflop.
duggs
the reason i ask is that 200bb deep stacks pre shouldnt really play very differently, so if min raising is optimal it would be optimal in cash games also.
ShortStackJack
Maybe I could have said that better. By narrowing his range, I mean getting more info on his range. If V is 3 betting our late position open, it could be a real hand, or it could be a resteal. By 4 betting here, we can get a better idea of the hand he could have. If he folds, it was a straight up re-steal. If he calls, it tells us that he is in his value range. Not necessarily a premium, but it could be, and it means that we should proceed with caution depending on the flop texture. If he 5bets/jams, well, it pretty much is QQ+ and AK (depending on how aggro V is and our history with him). Point is, he may still call with weak pp and suited connectors if he is laggish.
And please realize that I am not really taking a stance here, rather I’m playing devil’s advocate for you with the purpose of having a good poker discussion.
🙂
It seems to me that 4betting in this spot seems pretty standard, especially if you have an aggro style. It’s definitely a higher variance play, but it gives you a lot of information (potentially) and builds the pot if you suspect you will get flatted by this particular opponent with his weaker holdings. You also take control of the action, which is important here since you will be playing the hand out of position. If you are the last to bet pre-flop, your flop cbet looks a lot stronger than if you had just called him, allowing you to take down the pot right there a lot more often, even when you you brick.
ShortStackJack
Maybe I could have said that better. By narrowing his range, I mean getting more info on his range. If V is 3 betting our late position open, it could be a real hand, or it could be a resteal. By 4 betting here, we can get a better idea of the hand he could have. If he folds, it was a straight up re-steal. If he calls, it tells us that he is in his value range. Not necessarily a premium, but it could be, and it means that we should proceed with caution depending on the flop texture. If he 5bets/jams, well, it pretty much is QQ+ and AK (depending on how aggro V is and our history with him). Point is, he may still call with weak pp and suited connectors if he is laggish.
And please realize that I am not really taking a stance here, rather I’m playing devil’s advocate for you with the purpose of having a good poker discussion.
It seems to me that 4betting in this spot seems pretty standard, especially if you have an aggro style. It’s definitely a higher variance play, but it gives you a lot of information (potentially) and builds the pot if you suspect you will get flatted by this particular opponent with his weaker holdings. You also take control of the action, which is important here since you will be playing the hand out of position. If you are the last to bet pre-flop, your flop cbet looks a lot stronger than if you had just called him, allowing you to take down the pot right there a lot more often, even when you you brick.
ShortStackJack
Again, I think there is information to be gained here. We are in better postion in this hand, but AQo is still somewhat speculative in this position (what was it UTG+1?). We gain lots of info on opponents who open a lot of hands. I’ll assume that was Danny’s read in this case. If V is on the tighter side, I guess we can flat here and try to see a flop cheap, but a case could be made for actually folding this hand.
I really don’t have a problem with 3bet/f if we are deep enough.
ShortStackJack
Sorry for the double post.
Well, I think it does create more action and more fold equity, as odd as that sounds. Those who are paying attention, will realize that you are min raising premiums and will respect your min raises more. Those who aren’t paying attention will call you with with weaker holdings. You would be surprised how many folds you get, especially when you have a bigger stack. People just don’t want to mess with you, especially if you are a pain in the ass to play post flop. You really DO have to have, or be trying to develop your post flop game if you are going to play this way. The more I play this way, the more I want to play post flop, because that is where I feel my advantage is. Lot’s of people have a good push/fold/pre-flop game, but a lot of (most) people suck post flop. That is where people make mistakes and that is where the majority of chips are.
Sometimes, don’t we WANT the pot size smaller? AQo is definitely a speculative hand, and if we are going to c-bet a large potion of the time, even when we miss, it makes a c-bet less painful when we get check raised beyond what we are willing to call off with. With today’s hyper aggro games and opponents, you can still build the pot when you hit it, and the smaller bet sizing looks less scary. The key is getting value over multiple streets, really.
duggs
yea im not having a go, my main issue is that he will be 3betting a polarised range v us if he is any good, so 4betting AQo folds out his air range (some of which may flat but i dont think people 3b/c suited connectors and small pairs at all, and we either get flatted or 4bet by a range that crushes us and we remove all of his air, which seems like a waste of the equity AQo has v his range.
duggs
creating a smaller SPR when our range crushes theirs is absolutely crucial to getting value
bigdogpckt5s
duggs sometimes you turn the best hand into a bluff here. However having said that flatting with the best hand oop is defenetly not always the right option. I dont think you should get into the habbit of flatting oop just because you think you have the best hand. That will work out pretty neg ev over time.