[Total: 6 Average: 9.8/5]
You must sign in to vote
MORE IN THIS SERIES : Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Part 6
TPE Member Turbulence Big 109 Win Hand History Review (Part 3)
MORE IN THIS SERIES : Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Part 6
duggs
16min, 89dd, does the fact that the bb is a legal raise making flatting pre better or worse?
also i would have the opposite response to the scope results, even if a fish reps very thin range, ie Ksx and flushes, if they never have a bluffing range then we are making a bluff that will never be successful.
where as a thinking player probably bet/folds a reasonably large portion of his betting range on that river
duggs
42min, i think 88 and 1010 are definitely in his c/r range aswell although they are only a few combos
duggs
final hand, 66 he can have QJ, and i think people generally would fire turn as a bluff and when they check back. like he probably checks back AK because can he really get you off better on the river?
redvulture61
At 47.14 its so hard for villain to be bluffing in this spot so i would fold in most cases. Stack sizes are such that villain is looking to pot control most 1 pair hands on this board avoid bloating the pot and being faced with difficult decisions on future streets which i sometimes do. But in retrospect i think the check back is poor by villain because you want to be betting to protect your equity and give your oppponent bad odds to draw to a potential better hand..
On the turn after you check Shuans range is essentially capped to draws and no better than 1 pair type hands. On the river its an easy fold because you can now have trip 99s now and it is unlikely he does.
redvulture61
You can also have straights i forgot to add to my last comment because i identically clicks the post button. I just dont see what worse he could show up with here. Maybe he is bluffing with a whiffed AQ,AK, but i think that’s a bit ambitious and that is a very small part of his range at that point.
redvulture61
At 16 minutes you have to be pretty certain that villain is capable of laying down all 1 pairs as i have seen some really stubborn calls in the past on the river from people who have tried such a play including myself. I would never dream of doing such a play against a fish because there not good enough to recognize your typical range there for what it is.
loxxii
I learned so much in the 89s v TT hand. I agree that you have to 3bet to prevent light squeezes. But if they are unlikely to squeeze, I like the flat with such a robust hand especially if you are capable of doing sexy shit like repping both flushes on the river and merging.
Also, you should know before you call an EP raise if the guy is a fish or not. If he is bad, then he is probably not light from there and I would like a fold with these stacks. If he is good, then I like flatting and merging provided that the blinds think a light squeeze is code for some type of foreplay.
loxxii
At 25 min with TT in the BB,
What is the argument for 3bet calling if the second guy doesn’t flat? Are we trying to induce a shove from a hand weaker than TT?
With our stack and position, I think that looks much stronger than just shoving 25bbs. I think some players would fold mid pairs to the 3bet but call the shove because a shove looks like it could be AQ or AK whereas the 3bet is probably never AQ and less likely to be AK than QQ+.
mickman
I usually always fold preflop in the last hand with 66 because of how poorly they flop/play in 3bet pots when we are OOP as the caller. I think as played river is a pretty easy fold, when villain goes – bet/check/bet and with the river the sizing he uses it just looks like straight value.
mickman
Sorry, also just to add, when i said always fold – i meant never flat. I think 66 is doing so badly against Villain’s value range that if we think he is light a decent amount there then we should 4bet him because of how tough it will be to try to showdown 66.
MovesLikeDarvin
98s if definitely a worse call when there are legal raises behind us. if bb is stuck i think its okay still, just because there is the dynamic where we’ll see the hand after.
fishes dont rep, duggs. at least not as often as a thinking player. if a fish is betting the river hes more likely to call off than a thinking player who would b/f a thin value range. fishes dont have thin value ranges nearly as often.
MovesLikeDarvin
i think ipo lays down here. hes smart enough to know our call range on the flop should look like: flush draws, flopped boats, sometimes A5s hands, or potentially discounted straight draws. i highly doubt hes b/c’ing middle pairs like TT here. the hands he could call with on river are in my mind AK, boats or spade flushes, so thin that our bluff works very well in the long run.
not to mention if youre flatting 98s here you need to be able to do this kind of thing to show a profit in flatting pre.
MovesLikeDarvin
yeah i agree but almost never see those here
MovesLikeDarvin
yeah 66 is a river fold for sure
MovesLikeDarvin
i disagree that we have straights here, i think QJ gets folded pre and then 76 is a rarity as well.
MovesLikeDarvin
ya but just have to watch out for r/f 66 UTG here because it becomes ridiculously exploitable to do so over the long run. just becomes a matter of knowing your table dynamic
MovesLikeDarvin
depends on how you feel your opponent would perceive that (no perfect answer to this question).
at the time of recording i had some personal vendetta against reshoving 24-26bb hands but have since adjusted. but if at 25bb u 3b here i think it looks to most like they have some perceived fold equity if they jam over our 3b HU (and i promise im right here, its happened, even minutes before this post in a session).
again, all player dependent. sorry i cant give you a hard and fast yes or no here
Turbulence
Thanks for all the great input guys. Glad the series is providing some good debating points.
duggs
i should proof read my comments in future, rep isnt a very good phrase to use in that context. what i meant is that if there is a spot where villian literally can only have a few combinations of nuts, since fish just never bluff they only turn up with those combinations no matter how narrow and blocked it is, since there bluff frequency will be zero and they dont thin value bet. absolute top of the range and we should be making exploitative folds with like the 3rd nuts or whatever.
edit: just rewatched the hand, comment was regarding where you say you would still bluff jam on a fish in this spot and i dont think its that good given we have very little fold equity there.
duggs
ugh ignore last line of 1st paragraph i thought deleted it.
mmzz55
hello,yesterday subcribed,a lot of great stuff for learning here
Just quick check,in last 66 hand,is hero r/c shorties 10bbBTN and 8,5bb SB?Im kind of struggling with these spots where we have odds to call but almost always behind when ss jamms and possibly damage our stack.any answer appreciated,thx