I would like to talk about reviewing hand histories at the advanced or pro
level. Are pros actually sitting down and reviewing “all” their
hand histories post tourney? I have to admit, that I have never had the
patience or discipline to do it on everything. I think it's great for
newbs to get into the habit of doing early on so you don't struggle with it
later in life like I do, but with current technology today, specifically the
ability to mark hands for later retrieval, I just haven't been able to get myself
to do it. 90% of the tourney is mechanical for me and when you have
things like bet sizing, position, opening hand requirements, ICM, etc… down, is
there still much added value in HH review later that I am missing out on?
If at any point in a tourney I struggle with a hand or decision, I instantly
mark it for later retrieval and follow up on it the best I can. So are
the pros/grinders really reviewing “all” their hands later or are
they doing the same thing I am which is marking hands for later retrieval?
I guess I just don't want to fall into one of those, “do as I say, not as
I do thing….”
In the video he was talking about set mining OOP and how he doesn't really
want to play a set OOP. This is the first time I have ever heard anyone
talk about set mining OOP. Could you elaborate on this a bit more?
As long as I am getting the right implied odds to set, I just go ahead and do
it anyway. What is causing you to take position into account when set
mining? Is it that you don't want to be OOP on a draw heavy board?
Hagbard also talked about fold equity on a flop “if” he was to get
reraised. I just wanted to point out that it was an absolute awesome
point and something to think about in decision making. Any time I have
heard anyone talk about fold equity it has always been in preflop discussions,
and never once have I heard it in post flop play. Thank you for pointing
this out because I will surely take it into account for future decision making!
The hand that you broke down on Timmy with the math you talked about how you
are not sure if he is a reg that will shove/fold in this spot every time.
A 19/17 VPIP will and can go absolutely either way. Based off his
aggression, it's safe to assume that 85% of the he is actually just going to
get it in. Not sure what the number is in lower left of your HUD, but if
that is his aggression factor at 7+…then he is off the wall aggressive and
would further have me believe he is shoving any ace on you, and flatting with
suited connector type hands in that spot. A 19 vpip is playing low end aces,
suited connectors, and gap connectors more often than say a 12 vpip, so he
absolutely will peel a flop with you if you give him the right price and he
gets enticed by the look of his cards. I agree that your pre raise should
of been 3 X raise just simply based off of what I already said and his desire
to see a flop with you cheap even with 20 bb's or so. You have to price a
player like Timmy out because he also has position on you, and based off my
short read, he is one of the most dangerous players to play OOP with. Obv
you are missing the flop majority of the time, and an optimal play might just
be to call/shove any non scary flop against you based off your own stack size
and image if he misses anyway. He is also aware that at this point in the
tourney, you are just as afraid of taking a big hit right now and I might use
that on you if the board comes rags because then it would look like to you
(level thinking) that he might of peeled the flop with you with an ace rag hand
that so many people do in this spot. Of course, I am not saying this as
some sort of an exact science or something, or like I know better type of
thing….it's just totally my opinion. Sorry…I just love talking HUD's and hands
😉
You were speaking too fast and I couldn't make out exactly what you said but
you mentioned a “EVGTO” or something to that affect, push
chart? More info please 🙂
October 6, 2010
nice post.
a couple of things.
set mining is much better in position because you are not relying on just hitting your set – you can use your position to maybe take the pot at some point, or you might even decide your middle pair that didn't hit a set is good.
so we have 3 ways to win a pot, hitting a set, bluffing, or getting to showdown, and in position all 3 options are possible, but OOP options 2 and 3 are a lot harder to accomplish.
with regards to reviewing your sessions, i dont usually review every hand, but if i go deep in a tourney i will review that tourney in its entirety, just to try and pick up spots that i missed. you are right in that a lot of things are mechanical, but thats a bad thing
for instance, if you review your session, you might notice that you cbet too often or not often enough in certain spots, and you might notice that certain players are starting to float you etc etc. so you can adjust a bit, make notes on regs who you are playing with a lot, etc etc.
Well said thanks! Your 3 bet explanation makes total sense to me now. I think I am to fixed on “just” hitting my setting…”no set, no bet…” and I am done.
God I have picked up so much in just two days 🙂 Then again, what other nut is going to have 47 posts in 2 days and not already pick up a bunch of stuff…lmao
October 6, 2010
hehe nice work on the post count.
seriously though, you are not afraid to ask all types of questions, which means you are willing to learn. and in that regard you will find LOTS of like minded people here.
man i'm sorry i just saw this thread now. thanks for the questions.
wrt set-mining OOP, i think it's kind of similar to playing draws OOP–it's going to be harder in general to get value. like if you flop middle set from teh blinds, you check to the PFR and he bets, you have two options: 1) c/r, which is going to look like you have a set or 2) c/c, which will generally result in winning a small-medium sized pot.
whereas in position if we flat a c-bet with a set we can always bet the turn and make sure three bets go in. this isn't to say you shouldn't setmine OOP, and you're right, if you have the proper expressed/implied odds to setmine, then by all means setmine. but it never hurts to think about lines and how you are going to get value postflop, which will always be trickier OOP.
as for reviewing sessions, i think most serious players do this far less often than they should, myself included. i probably average 1/week. that is going over a full tournament history. i do always keep a text document open to paste trouble spots in for later review, but sometimes you don't get them all, and doing a HH review here or there is a good way to review spots that you might have missed/didn't realize was a tricky spot.
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