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I just had to chime in on the AKhh hand at the end. I can't understand turning a hand that strong into a bluff by even considering 3bet/folding. Flatting a 4bet OOP with it seems weak as well. It's vs a 75bb stack on the BUTTON, button vs small blind and you don't feel comfortable putting your stack in? I mean I can understand if he's an EP raiser who's a nit, but really? I know I”m coming from a cash game background, but is this a normal play for MTTers?
Also shouldn't you be anticipating every possibility when you 3bet? I.E if you don't know what you're going to do vs a 4bet which is a very real possibility why 3bet? You could easily flat AKhh here and play a strong hand disguised OOP. Why on earth turn your hand into 27o or A2o or whatever by even considering 3bet/folding? I actually like flatting the 4bet more than that to be honest!
Hey gob,
For the record, I posted the fold was okay. I agree with a lot of your comments. However, I do not think the hand is at all disguised if you call. Actually, if I was the button, that is exactly the hand I would put him on.
Just my thoughts.
No1uNo said:
Hey gob,
For the record, I posted the fold was okay. I agree with a lot of your comments. However, I do not think the hand is at all disguised if you call. Actually, if I was the button, that is exactly the hand I would put him on.
Just my thoughts.
So you raise the button and somebody flats from the SB and you put them on AKss? Huh? Why not 22-TT, AQ, KQ, AJss, ATss, etc?
And to be clear I meant call as in just call the single opening raise, if you meant “call” as in calling the 4bet OOP, then that's not what I meant by calling. I meant if you're going to 3bet/fold to a 4bet, why on earth would you 3bet fold a hand as strong as AKss when you could just flat?
Also to Lee:
Would you 3bet/fold QQ in this spot too?
Gob,
I meant the call of the 4 bet. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
On the last hand (AhKh) I think Shipping > Calling > Folding. If you ship pre and you're flipping you still just about have the odds with the money already in the middle. I think you have some FE as villain has been quite loose judging by the way his chip stack has gone up and down and you have quite a tight image. If you call and play fit or fold you still have the odds (it's 800 odd to make a pot of 3000 odd) so you're gloing to get TPTK or the nut flush with overs often enough to be profitable. This villain will probably fire/call with a PP. As played you whiffed the flop so there's not a lot you could have done OOP afterwards.
Brandon said:
On the last hand (AhKh) I think Shipping > Calling > Folding. If you ship pre and you're flipping you still just about have the odds with the money already in the middle. I think you have some FE as villain has been quite loose judging by the way his chip stack has gone up and down and you have quite a tight image. If you call and play fit or fold you still have the odds (it's 800 odd to make a pot of 3000 odd) so you're gloing to get TPTK or the nut flush with overs often enough to be profitable. This villain will probably fire/call with a PP. As played you whiffed the flop so there's not a lot you could have done OOP afterwards.
Yeah I agree, this villain would have to be pretty tight in order to justify a strong fold. I understand wanting to not flip and let skill advantage take over…however, I think this is a dangerous thing to teach on a training site because most of us overrate our abilities at everything…look up the Lake Wobegon Effect on Wikipedia. 99.9% of people rate themselves as above average communicators, 98% of men rate themselves above average athletically, etc etc. It's button vs blind, this isn't too complicated. 🙂
OK first of all let me say im not the greatest writer in the world. I express my thoughts much better saying them then typing them out. Having said that this AK suited hand is getting alot of chatter so I watched the vid and here are my thoughts for those of you that are interested in them. First off at the beggining of this vid lee 3 bets this exact person twice once was sb to bb when he had a10 might even have been the first hand of the vid. And there is a second hand that he 3 bets so its not like this is the first time that lee has made a 3 bet against this opponent. I think the bet sizing on his 3 bet is a little off but thats pretty irrelevent imo were dealing with the 4 bet. The bottom line here is he thinks that his hand is better then lee’s 3 bet range. So he throws out a 4 bet. I totally get all of lee’s thought process about not want to flip when he has a edge on the field I couldnt agree more. But I think this is a pretty standard shove given the dynamics are he has already 3 bet this person twice. Also the first action comes on the button if it was say utg and then a 4 bet from the utg raiser it might change things slightly. I honestly think that Lee is thinking hes gonna have to flip here. I dont think thats true. I think this person is folding to a jam atleast 50 percent of the time. The times he is calling were dominated a very small percentage of the time maybe 20 percent tops. I think this is a standard shove and I could never find a fold here. If I was playing live it may be different and I think live players find a fold here more then online but. I think litterally your almost as likely to have your opponent dominated online here as you are being dominated yourself. Alot of online guys are just never releasing AQ on the button to a single action from 1 of the blinds. Bottom line is I think hes folding atleast half the time and the other half were prolly racing. It makes it extreamly plus ev in the bigdog’s poker book. Just my thoughts hope they came across ok.
Bigdogpckt5s
October 6, 2010
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yep, agree with everything you say.
the live vs online think is pretty relevant too, the internet is inherently more aggressive, partially i think because you can just load up another tourney if you bust out, and also becuause noone likes to have to look at the guy that has just owned their soul in a hand, and so they would rather be a bit tighter before they get it in.
Agreed, Big Dog. Bottom line is we're up against a fairly aggro player who we've 3bet a few times before and it's BTN vs SB and we have a top 2.5% hand. I think villain is folding more than 50% to be honest and I think we're also getting it in with great equity a lot too.
My fear is that a lot of people watching the video will start to avoid making aggressive plays because they perceive themselves to have an edge on whatever field they are in, (whether they do or not) as well as the fact that we need to teach that when we 3bet we have to already have a plan for if we're 4bet. If we're going to 3bet/fold a hand with so much value it's a travesty, just flat preflop with it then!
That's all, I don't mean to go off on Lee.
I play more aggro online for win rate. I am not turning down +ev spots early. The worst tourneys are those where I play for hours and still don't cash. I want to go deep or bust out early. Having said all that Lee has a system which works for him and suits his skill level.
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