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November 12, 2013
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I am relatively new to TPE but was playing holdem tourneys pretty well before Black Friday, (I am from the US) and only recently started back.. boy have things changed, esp. bet sizing.
Can someone give me a good link (here or somewhere else) about the theory/strategy behind minraising as a standard raise, and about the small continuation bets (33-40%) that seem to now be standard?
Also when I used to play, 3betting and 4 betting light were becoming standard, but I am sure things have moved on from there, what's the current take on how things have evolved, especially on this topic?
Thanks in advance,
Authorfre aka Thirstyboots
November 22, 2013
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I'm not going to post a link, but the reason why people are decreasing their raising sizes is because it allows for cheaper steal attempts. Once antes are introduced the entire game of poker centers around stealing the blinds/antes. If it's 100/200 with 25 antes then the pot is 550. Sure, a raise to 600 will show a profit if your opponents fold the majority of the time. However, most opponents will fold to a 400 raise just as readily as they will fold to a 600 raise and then you are making an immediate profit even if your opponents fold less than half the time. Making a small cbet falls under the same theory. Let's say your opponent calls your 400 raise and now there is 1350 in the pot from your raise, his call, and the blinds/antes. A 750 cbet will generally win the pot. However, a 500 cbet will often fold out an opponent that completely missed the flop as well. Lowering your raising amounts just allows you to steal more cheaply. The other benefit is that sometimes you will actually have a hand and betting small allows you to manipulate the pot better, giving you a lot more flexibility, without becoming too invested. Keep in mind that these small raises aren't universal and many opponents are still raising 3x BB. The strategy is called small ball. Daniel Negreneau wrote about it.
October 21, 2012
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Good post. Ed Miller also advocates keeping the pot small on earlier streets to leave room for later when your equity is higher and you have more hand reading info.
Another point about small c-bets is that they are usually used on dry flops. If the flop is AT4rb then a 1/3 pot c-bet is probably gonna get the job done whereas you may wanna bet bigger on QT7 with a flush draw or if the pot is multiway.
October 6, 2010
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agree with that last part, sizing should go on board texture a lot.
November 22, 2013
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loxxii said:
Good post. Ed Miller also advocates keeping the pot small on earlier streets to leave room for later when your equity is higher and you have more hand reading info.
Another point about small c-bets is that they are usually used on dry flops. If the flop is AT4rb then a 1/3 pot c-bet is probably gonna get the job done whereas you may wanna bet bigger on QT7 with a flush draw or if the pot is multiway.
I agree with this except I don't think you need to be cbetting on wet boards in multiway pots. Although I do see people habitually doing so, I think it's better to save your chips. If you didn't hit that board in a multiway pot, it's likely one of your opponents smashed it.
November 4, 2013
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Good reply Wiz!
Something else to keep in mind here is that small ball is designed to be played as a certain “style”. Therefore, even while it has been adopted as a pretty standard raise sizing, not a lot of people have the deep understanding of it that Negreneau explains in his book. It's a great way to play for stealing, it actually works quite well.
What you want to watch for though, is that a lot of players who are way too tight are still adopting this bet sizing. If you come across someone who is a nit, you can abuse him quite well by floating the flop and betting if he shuts down on the turn. It also goes the other way, where some guys use this small bet to open their ranges wide open, and flatting them in position starts to become very profitable, because they will just miss way too many flops for them to fire constantly. Negreneau actually talked about this min raise technique in one of his podcasts, and thanked players for doing it… it's supposedly quite easy to exploit vs a large % of players.
It won't take long to get used to the min raise.. I would guess you will even adopt it soon enough because of how well it just works.
November 22, 2013
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Yes I noticed it is exploitable as well. If my opponent opens a lot and has a large fold to 3 bet % then I want him to open with a small raise bc it just makes re-stealing with a 3 bet so much easier. E.g. some players who min-raise to steal will fold to a 6bb 3 bet. It's the same thing with players who cbet every flop but habitually shutdown on the turn if they don't hit, which is the most common exploitable tendency imo. When they cbet small it just makes floating and stealing on the turn so much easier. However, that doesn't mean you should start opening with huge raises, it simply means you should be less exploitable, ie. sometimes checking turn with a hand and sometimes firing multiple barrells without one.
November 12, 2013
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Thanks for your replies, will be trying it out. What about when you have a draw, and bet 1/3- 1/4 as a Cbet? Also if I have an overpair, and bet more like 50-67% on a wetflop, isnt that exploitable when the rest of the time I am betting 33-40%?
November 22, 2013
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authorfre said:
Thanks for your replies, will be trying it out. What about when you have a draw, and bet 1/3- 1/4 as a Cbet? Also if I have an overpair, and bet more like 50-67% on a wetflop, isnt that exploitable when the rest of the time I am betting 33-40%?
It's exploitable to opponents who are awake, but some of your opponents aren't awake.
Even so, I think the general way around this is to vary your raise sizes somewhat randomly, not completely randomly, but randomly enough to confuse most opponents. E.g. 80% of the time make the raise size you believe to be optimal and 20% of the time make a somewhat random raise size. Although this isn't optimal under game theory, the advantage that you gain by being less exploitable is greater than the loss you lose by 20% of the time making a slightly suboptimal raise amount.
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