On this episode of the Tournament Poker Edge Podcast, Chris “MovesLikeDarvin” Moon joins us to discuss his recent online success, grinding in Canada and to critique a hand from Killingbird's recent trip to the WSOPc in Cherokee, North Carolina.
August 23, 2012
I agree that betting turn is best when we flat and call the flop CB. But if we had 3b JJ BU vs CO and CB the 743r flop, how standard is it to continue on the 5 turn? I would probably check this turn back more often than not while on auto-pilot. How many combos of hands hands that we can get value from vs bloating the pot vs 2 pairs, sets, and straights. Obviously his turn range is very much correlated to our 3b and flop CB sizings, but we could construct a range based on theoretical sizings. Anyway, what I am trying to say is that he may have enough combos of stronger hands in his range on the turn than single pair hands like TT-88, A7s, 87s. I also agree that villain is not likely to check/raise bluff the turn as played because our range is so much wider and could easily contain sets and 6x. But it may be much more of a factor in a 3b pot because our range is much more defined to overpairs and overcards that a check/raise bluff is much more likely because we can almost never have 6x. Obviously this is read dependent, but villain could turn his ace highs that he floated on the flop into bluffs on the turn and X/R turn and shove river because the 5 is such a better card for his range than ours. It would be a pretty good spot to raise turn small to induce calls from all overpairs and then bomb river. That way he makes more from turn calls and then gets folds on the river.
Derek's JJ hand is really interesting.
I definitely 3bet it preflop.
IMO, the guy's range can be pretty wide, depending on how capable we think he actually is. Check out Elky's book and notice what kind of hands he says to iso limpers with. I'm pretty sure Jonathan Little's book says the same thing. I think it's sort of popular right now to iso light in the early stages to chip up against fish. (Also a pretty effective strategy in live cash.)
I don't think checking back turn is as bad as you guys made it sound. It can probably induce river bluffs considering how wide (undefined) our perceived range is after we've chosen to play the hand this way (flatting preflop and flop). He can still have random whiffed overcards and Ax (see above regarding his potentially wide isoing range), and can also bet worse for value on the river.
I think we're usually only getting two streets, as he's going to find a hero fold with 88-TT if we bet turn and river (although he should be bet/folding turn with any overpair IMO…but as we see here, lots of players are too pot-controlly on boards like this).
As played, definitely raising river to get value from a poorly played QQ/KK/AA, although I make it smaller than Chris suggested. It might be hard to get him to pay off much bigger than a minraise since there's a one liner on the board, and it's also easier to get away from our hand, which, despite its massive absolute strength, becomes nothing but a bluffcatcher vs a river 3bet. (Even if he's a crazy **** capable of turning a strong hand into a bluff when he knows he's beat, it would be suicidal for him to do so in this spot. We can pretty much rule that out.)
Also, on Chris’ blind vs blind hand where he has JJ, I think villain’s range is a bit wider than you guys discussed. Just a very small thing, but given your history and small open size I don’t think he’s folding any suited queen, and might actually double float his entire range on this board with the plan of taking the pot on the river. Idk, maybe I’m just assuming everyone is as spewy and fancy in these spots as I am…
On the river, I think betting like 1/8 pot to induce is kinda sexy if we think he’s capable of double floating, but the overshove is probably the best play.
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