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$11 Deepstack FT
Sen
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February 25, 2014 - 12:18 am
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One of the few deepstack tournaments on stars.

6 left, bigstacks are 110+ BBs and 80+ BBs.

I am 5th, about 35 BBs, shortstack has 28 BBs.

Been finaltabling this a few times now. Super high ROI here, only thing is it lasts 10h+.

Sen
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February 25, 2014 - 12:47 am
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2nd in chips now, 5handed.

Got 77 BBs now, managed to chip up without any showdown, just pure FE (fold equity and fear equity ;).

Oh btw: $987 on top, not too much for that long play, but i can't resist these soft fields.

525 runners.

Sen
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February 25, 2014 - 1:59 am
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Now heads up.

The serbian guy barely speaks english. He's pretty aggro, strange plays, this isn't gonna be easy. Doesn't want to give some of the dealmoney to me, so I'll try and crush him.

Anyways my tourney M is 30 and his 66, so gl me!

Sen
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February 25, 2014 - 2:48 am
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He plays totally strange. Bluffs 2/3 pot all the time, but only postflop. His sizing pre is often full of tells.

He plays aggro but often stupid. Good for me, I guess.

Stacks are now almost even. 🙂 M ~39 for both.

Sen
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February 25, 2014 - 2:53 am
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Shipped it.

Marsh345
England
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February 25, 2014 - 5:22 am
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Nice one mate

jacobsharktank
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February 25, 2014 - 8:37 am
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nice job on the ship 🙂 def cool when villain prevents a chop from happening

Sen
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February 26, 2014 - 6:43 am
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This tourney lasted 14h. Chopped this two month ago for $1.4k on a sunday and finished 3rd the first sunday this month for $750.

Funny thing is I was 3/18 the day before I took this down in the same toruney and donked off my stack to an aggro-fish who represented the flush which he actually had, vs poket queens. As I said extreme ROI in these, unfortunally playing 14h is just a little too long to try this more than 2 times a week. If there was a $22 Deepstack with an $10k Gtd pool this would be awesome.

My last hand was fun, I had gained a slightly chip-lead and was dealt QdiamondQheart.

He minraised the button, I reraised 2.5x. He just called. Flop came Aspade5club7club. He checked, I checked (pot control vs the aggro fish; if he had the ace he would surely reraise if I bet, but he was capable of doing so with a seven, so I wanted to get to showdown cheaply). Turn was Qclub. Gin! Well, almost. Since I had checked the flop, the aggro-fish donk-bet 2/3 pot. I was pretty sure we are good with our set of queens and reraised to 2.5x again – just in case he had the Aclub with no club kicker and to get max fish-value. He took 40 seconds of his timebank and reshipped his whole stack (about 2x pot at that time). I took a few seconds and called, hoping he was tilting with an Ace-noclub hand, that he had done before, or at best drawing to the nutflush. With the made flush I am sure he had snap-shoved.

Well, he showed Jheart5heart. GG. Little skill, but a lot of hearts. 😀

Flicka
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February 26, 2014 - 7:07 am
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Nice game.

Sen
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February 26, 2014 - 10:16 am
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Thank you! Well, just one more info: we played 1260 hands, at least that's what HEM recorded. So stay away from these tourneys unless you got nerves of steel and good health. 😉

ttwist

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February 26, 2014 - 10:34 am
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Sen said:

Shipped it.

great Job!

jacobsharktank
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February 26, 2014 - 10:54 am
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You are a trooper dude. I couldn't fathom keeping my A-game going in a single low buy-in tournament for 14 hours. The money doesn't really keep me going when playing, but when you approach the extremes of time spent in-game, it hurts just a tad thinking it's not something that gives you a better hourly. I don't know how long your average run in this tournament lasts, but if it's 5 hours and your roi is 100%, youre talking about $2/hr in a game that might be costing resources better allocated in other tournaments. Obviously multitabling then combines the expected hourlies of multiple tournaments to generate your expected hourly, and I don't know exactly how much each individual tournament has an impact on your overall roi, but this one might be just a little too much if there's the possibility of putting up any other games. If you were able to get 2 tournaments in that had a lower average run of 4 hours, and an roi of 50%, you've increased hourly by $.50. I'm just throwing ideas around. I'm doing this rough math as I think about it/type it all out. I think I'm getting onto something? I just hate the idea of investing say 12 hours into a tournament only to cash for 50-60 dollars. Even though you may have a high edge in this tournament, I think there might be better games going on. You're just talking about relying on yourself to keep your A-game for an extremely long time for a small payout. Your roi can be high, but if the average length of time in this tournament is significantly greater than other tournaments without being an equally significant proportionate change in roi between tournaments, then youre better off playing something else.

Sen
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February 26, 2014 - 11:16 am
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Good thoughts, no doubt. Thinking like this might be the reason why there are so few regs and so many fish around. Nevertheless with my low BR and a ROI of more than 800% in these (~30 tournament sample) for the last 3 month I surely won't stop playing these until my bankroll is about double the size from now or I notice that I was just experience variance in my favour. During the first 6 hours of the game I almost always multi table up to 8 tables. And if I feel I don't miss out on too much during the last 6+ hours of the tourney I might throw in 2 or 3 $8 180man turbos, as well as other turbo tourneys or watch TPE videos and taking notes. Has worked for me so far.

jacobsharktank
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February 26, 2014 - 11:24 am
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Remember a high ROI means nothing really when you increase the amount of time played by a significant amount. A $10 tournament that lasts an average of 4 hours for you (winning takes 6, losing varies) with an roi of 30% gives an hourly of $.75 per game. A $10 tournament that lasts an average of 8 hours with an roi of 55% nets you $.69 an hour for every tournament played. This is why you find fewer regs in that game. It's full of fish yes, but the field size/length hurts you. Good luck in the future, but I'd shy from thinking not to change something just because your current set up “works” because it is possible to be wrong in your assessment of what's working and what's not working. Over 30 tournaments, your roi can be all over the place. In all honesty, you likely will never know or come anywhere near knowing your true roi for that particular tournament because it's just not something you'll ever have enough data points on. Variance is a thing. I'm just pointing out that youre possibly talking about hurting yourself by not maximizing $ev. If you're one tabling after the first 6 hours, then you're definitely talking about losing value elsewhere. All that said, I love deep stackk games and would probably play this myself if there wasn't anything better and I had the time to dedicate.

Sen
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February 26, 2014 - 12:01 pm
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I really appreciate your opinion and see a valid point. Still my hourly is about $23 (which isn't great but good for me at that poin) atm and I think I can keep this up which would be a decent rate for me. I play turbos all the time and the normal MTTs on stars often enough and I enjoy deepstack a lot. I love postflop play and you don't get as much anywhere as in these tourneys.

On pokerstars.fr there is a 30€ (~$40) Deepstack tourney with massive starting stacks but 15 minute blind level (opposed to the 30 min on stars.eu). If my roll increases I'll transfere funds to there and try to play this one every sunday as it won't take as long and have a much greater prizepool.

The fact that playing for 14h – especially on a computer and not in a live situation – isn't the most healthy thing to do, is what bothers me the most.

jacobsharktank
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February 26, 2014 - 1:24 pm
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See your posts makes me think you don't fully understand what your true roi actually means. Please don't take this as intended to offend or anything, but it's not possible for your ROI to be high enough to come to $23/hour, in the long term for a $11 tournament. Your CURRENT ROI in that tournament may be that. As I said, 30 tournaments is absolutely nothing. I only have 2000 games and I have plenty of 100 game dips and hills that realistically don't actually say anything about where you lie. Say you played nothing but that exact tournament, and you multitabled it. If you played 16 a day, and then played it for a month, you'd have about 320 tournaments. That's still not enough to know or come close to knowing your actual ROI over the field given that structure. You could win it once, lose 319 other times, and still actually have a good ROI, but you wouldn't see it because that's too small of a sample. See what I mean? Your hourly in that tournament is definitely going to be closer to what I said than what you said. That's nothing to say of skill whatsoever. It's literally just math/statistics. If you see this and stilll choose to play it, you really need to accept that it means youre comfortable making a very low amount of money in absolute terms as your hourly. With a small roll, playing with a low hourly is nothing to be unhappy with or anything either. It's gotta build somehow right? But you don't seem to have a small roll if youre playing these massive tournaments. That's why I think you should look at the other deepest tournament types where the field is capped.

 

That said, you can apply the same analysis in all tournaments/games and guess where you stand based on that new information. You should be looking at any game you may choose to play and make sure you truly believe you have a positive expectation (in investing/math terms, not like “I expect to cash or I'll be mad”), and then you should really make sure your assessment is true to reality, that is it accounts for everything. 

 

If your preferred game is deep stack post-flop poker, then I think maybe take a look at the final tables of the 15 minute tournaments. Check out the stacks. They're probably pretty comparable to the final table of the 30 miunte level tournament structure.15 minutes is actually on the better, longer end, for online tournaments, and in the US it's the best you see on a daily level. There are a couple of Sunday games I can think of that have 20 minute levels. I would definitely not consider the tournaments in the US to be worse than those in the rest of the world. We get short changed due to our circumstances, but there is nothing shallow about 15 minute levels. Unless the structure is skipping levels, take a look at the 15 minute games. Those games really are deep stacked and won't have only half avg stack final table to final table because the time of levels is only half. I didn't realize it was 30 minute levels and frankly, I really really really suggest playing something else if at ALL possible. That tournament structure/time is absolutely amazing, yes, but you're going to kill your soul all those times you run deep and cash for nothing, and worse than that youll want to kill yourself after a downswing (say 500-1000 of those games only, under the assumption you only played that x 16 every single day) when you then get it in good at the final two tables and lose a 3 outer or 2 outer. That kind of thing hurts more the more time invested. I don't think there's a way around it. The more time invested, the more of an impact a beat has on you. I'm pretty sure anyone saying otherwise would be lying to us and themselves. It's natural and will bother you more because you're only playing this tournament for a large part of your session. If this was part of a 10-40 game session that somehow lasts you all day anyway, then I'd consider having it just to keep you focused during the beginning of the later part of your session, but really that's sooooo long to be playing.

Sen
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February 26, 2014 - 2:02 pm
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I think I know perfectly well what you are saying here. Been looking into the maths of variance a lot and I know that my ~30 samples are worth proving nothing. At least 99,5% of the tourneys I play aren't deepstacked. So don't worry about mixing in other games. I have a very strict BR management and therefore wouldn't buy in to even a deepstack tourney that's much over $30, that's less than 1/100th of my roll. Turbos cap is 1/300th of the roll with some exceptions. Normal tourneys about 1/150th of the roll. I learned it the hard way. 🙂

I also try to put in a ton of volume (500+ tourneys a month) to reduce variance. And I love to mix in these deepstack tournaments every once in a while. It's been paying off lately, but even I'd make only $8/h I'd still enjoy them for the sake of play. I wonder if I should start a challange thread, where I'll always post when I play this, just for fun.

Don't worry about my soul, it's been crushed again and again, for 2014 I feel it's been reinforced to crush poker, not the other way round.

Another interesting thing about these super-deep tourneys is that you have to go all-in on the flop or turn or even pre so much more rarely, reducing variance extremely. Sure, loosing at the FT to a 1 to 3 outer is tougher than in an other tourney, but not by that much.

Oh and I know the deepstack tourneys on carbon, with 15 min blind levels and 5000c starting chips, they are fantastic, too. I currently don't have a roll there, but will be transfering some time in the future again.

Btw: No offense taken whatsoever, thanks for the detailed postings. And wait for my 800%+ ROI Deepstack challange thread! [I know this is the opposite of what you intended, but I am just too much of a “challange-accepted!” kinda guy]

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