October 6, 2010
Just watched the first vid so far (time restricted) picked up on a few spots. Feel free to disagree i just plucked a few ideas/suggestions for discussion purposes so i wont be upset
Vid 1
2 mins in you open
T8o on the button. You raise flatted by the SB. Pot is 32488 SB donk leads for
12500, you raise to 35000 sb folds. This
is nice play; the small probe size donk bet is very weak. Put him to a decision
and he folded. WP
7:30 KQo in BB flatted a min raise from g_peti. check folded
a 9c5d2d flop. Would’ve liked to see his cbet% stat, anything around 80%+ you
may have check raised on that dry flop and represented a set, good chance he
has AT+. You mention you were flatting pre with the intention of folding to a
cbet if you missed, prefer to just fold pre or 3bet if your only option of
winning the hand is flopping a pair when you could be dominated oop and end up
getting stacked. I prefer to either be prepared to bluff on the dry flop or
either fold/3bet pre.
11:10 g_peti min raises your BB again and you flat with A6o
you state with the intention of outplaying him. 5hTsTd flop pot is 30k you
check he bets 12k you call. Ah turn 54k pot you check he bets 24k you call. 9d
riv you check he checks you take it down he mucks. you state your check calling
riv hoping he bets out again. Think you should’ve
check raised this flop given that you folded
earlier, it’s even dryer than the previous one and you want to be sending
him the message that you will play back at him. Turn is fine check call. And i
would like to see a lead on the riv because i don’t see him 3 barrelling many
hands that you beat, he might have picked up a pair and may have some showdown
equity by now so get some value from it and bet. Also check the hand history
after he checks back it’ll show you what he had, might be valuable info for
later on.
13: min AA UTG you open 13135 get flatted by CO shoved to
226k by SB. You have 418k and CO has 106k remaining. doesn’t matter so much but
i would be flatting here rather than shoving because it looks stronger although
CO is either AI or folding either way, it’s best not to look strong when you
want action.
13:37 g_peti mins raises your BB for the 3rd time and you
flat again with 67s. he has 50+bb you have 100bb. Check fold to 1/2 pot cbet on a 9sQd4h
flop. Again far too passive, you’re beginning
to let this guy run you over and you’re not giving him any reason not to. You
have the stack to be putting HIM to decisions.
13:56 lucky 79 has 17bb and you hold Q8o in SB to his BB.
You ended up shoving he called 22 and held. One reason i might not shove here
was 2 hands previous you had AA Vs JJ and he was the guy who flatted your
initial raise and folded to the 3bet shove by JJ. he said he would've made a
flush that hand so he may be a bit tilted because of it and wanting to gamble.
Plus he's the short stack so he’s the one under pressure to gamble soon because
he prolly won’t step up the payouts by folding.
16mins your in SB g_peti opens UTG again 12k and you 3bet
24k with JTo and take it down. Finally lol you play back at him. I like it very
much. Since you now know he does fold to resistance i would 3 bet him pretty
much every hand he opens until he responds by tightening up (giving you more walks) or flats/4bets to
which you can play accordingly.
17min you open ATs get flatted by BB. 2h4d5c flop. He checks
you cbet he ships. 159k pot 94.3k to call you need around 40% equity to call. I
think it’s a fold, you do have 40% against hands 66-99 and are a big favourite against A6-A9. But
everything else he does this with has you dominated or crushed. Find a better
spot
17:30 you have 65o in BB and g_peti min raised the button and you fold. This is a 3bet given the history, your letting
this guy get away with it far too much.
20:50 g_petti min raises your BB again to 14k you hold ATo.
You 3bet to 39887 and he folds. I don’t mind the flat or 3 bet here. By flatting
you’re disguising the strength of your hand against his very wide range. If an
ace flops and he makes second or third pair he’s going to have a hard time
believing you have the ace because you only flatted pre, given that you have 3
bet him once before. The flat pre is
higher variance but will win you a bigger pot on average.
21.08 you hold 44 in the SB and bb has 28bb you open ship he
folds. Big overbet and i prefer the standard open. Your effectively open
shoving 28bb dry with 44, this is way too much.
thx dude for all your thoughts, i really appreciate it!!!
i tried to a add my thoughts to every hand but i have no idea how to quote right in this forum so i just added em into the quote in italic style, i hope thats ok to read, and i also added the handhistories to the hands you have picked if someoneelse wants to have a quick view at a specific hand.
G0liath said:
Just watched the first vid so far (time restricted) picked up on a few spots. Feel free to disagree i just plucked a few ideas/suggestions for discussion purposes so i wont be upset
Vid 1
2 mins in you open
T8o on the button. You raise flatted by the SB. Pot is 32488 SB donk leads for
12500, you raise to 35000 sb folds. This
is nice play; the small probe size donk bet is very weak. Put him to a decision
and he folded. WPty
7:30 KQo in BB flatted a min raise from g_peti. check folded
a 9c5d2d flop. Would’ve liked to see his cbet% stat, anything around 80%+ you
may have check raised on that dry flop and represented a set, good chance he
has AT+. You mention you were flatting pre with the intention of folding to a
cbet if you missed, prefer to just fold pre or 3bet if your only option of
winning the hand is flopping a pair when you could be dominated oop and end up
getting stacked. I prefer to either be prepared to bluff on the dry flop or
either fold/3bet pre.you are right i definetly could have 3b the flop here and at least tried to take the pot away from him, but i felt this was not the right time/the right hand to take a risk.especially because i was oop and if he would have called my 3b there were not many cards in the deck that could have helped improving my hand. So i think ist not the worst play to call pre and play this particular hand flopdependant. in addition i have been with him on the table before and also when i look at his stats at that time 12/12, he's not the kind of player who plays any 2. but i have to agree he opened up his game on the ft i definetely should have played back at him more often from the bb on coming hands
11:10 g_peti min raises your BB again and you flat with A6o
you state with the intention of outplaying him. 5hTsTd flop pot is 30k you
check he bets 12k you call. Ah turn 54k pot you check he bets 24k you call. 9d
riv you check he checks you take it down he mucks. you state your check calling
riv hoping he bets out again. Think you should’ve
check raised this flop given that you folded
earlier, it’s even dryer than the previous one and you want to be sending
him the message that you will play back at him. Turn is fine check call. And i
would like to see a lead on the riv because i don’t see him 3 barrelling many
hands that you beat, he might have picked up a pair and may have some showdown
equity by now so get some value from it and bet. Also check the hand history
after he checks back it’ll show you what he had, might be valuable info for
later on.You are right it maybe a good option to 3b the flop but i think on this flop ist not too bad to just float with the intention to bet the turn to take it down. That was the plan, but when the A peels off i was pretty sure to get more value by checking. i think it is pretty difficult to get some value on the river from a weaker hand, but i thought the best (and safest way, i mean theres also still a small percentage that he got me beat too) way was check and hoping for a 3rd barrell.
13: min AA UTG you open 13135 get flatted by CO shoved to
226k by SB. You have 418k and CO has 106k remaining. doesn’t matter so much but
i would be flatting here rather than shoving because it looks stronger although
CO is either AI or folding either way, it’s best not to look strong when you
want action.
13:37 g_peti mins raises your BB for the 3rd time and you
flat again with 67s. he has 50+bb you have 100bb. Check fold to 1/2 pot cbet on a 9sQd4h
flop. Again far too passive, you’re beginning
to let this guy run you over and you’re not giving him any reason not to. You
have the stack to be putting HIM to decisions.i feel the same as in the kq hand, but i think this one is way better to play back at him and this time i think should have .
13:56 lucky 79 has 17bb and you hold Q8o in SB to his BB.
You ended up shoving he called 22 and held. One reason i might not shove here
was 2 hands previous you had AA Vs JJ and he was the guy who flatted your
initial raise and folded to the 3bet shove by JJ. he said he would've made a
flush that hand so he may be a bit tilted because of it and wanting to gamble.
Plus he's the short stack so he’s the one under pressure to gamble soon because
he prolly won’t step up the payouts by folding.i guess with that stacksizes shoving ist the right play.
16mins your in SB g_peti opens UTG again 12k and you 3bet
24k with JTo and take it down. Finally lol you play back at him. I like it very
much. Since you now know he does fold to resistance i would 3 bet him pretty
much every hand he opens until he responds by tightening up (giving you more walks) or flats/4bets to
which you can play accordingly.finally
17min you open ATs get flatted by BB. 2h4d5c flop. He checks
you cbet he ships. 159k pot 94.3k to call you need around 40% equity to call. I
think it’s a fold, you do have 40% against hands 66-99 and are a big favourite against A6-A9. But
everything else he does this with has you dominated or crushed. Find a better
spotyap, now i also think the fold was the only right thing to do here, u r right theres not much i can beat
17:30 you have 65o in BB and g_peti min raised the button and you fold. This is a 3bet given the history, your letting
this guy get away with it far too much.yap, i should have played more back at him when i’m in bb. maybe i gave him too much credit and didnt adapt that he opened up his game on the ft when it got shorthanded but i have to say i also took his bb down sometimes. more aggression could never be wrong 😉
20:50 g_petti min raises your BB again to 14k you hold ATo.
You 3bet to 39887 and he folds. I don’t mind the flat or 3 bet here. By flatting
you’re disguising the strength of your hand against his very wide range. If an
ace flops and he makes second or third pair he’s going to have a hard time
believing you have the ace because you only flatted pre, given that you have 3
bet him once before. The flat pre is
higher variance but will win you a bigger pot on average.i get your point, but i prefer flatting with a hand that flops better or an even stronger hand, so i think the 3b with ATo is fine. take it down now, no playin around 😉
21.08 you hold 44 in the SB and bb has 28bb you open ship he
folds. Big overbet and i prefer the standard open. Your effectively open
shoving 28bb dry with 44, this is way too much.
2:07 – Im prolly not opening the T8o on the BTN into a 8BB stack because I will have to call a shove and thats not fun with Thigh. If he is really nitty its maybe ok to raise/fold but I would deffo just minraise in that case
On the flop I guess the raise is ok, it’s also possible to float unless you think he keeps barrelling pure air no draw – you have some backdoors which is nice. You will not make villain fold a FD or Qx by raising so if he only continues to fire with equity and gives up air on the turn floating is a better way to go.
What I don’t like is the way you betsized your raise, you just clicked a couple of times and quickly fired away. 29.800 to 31.000 would do the same job, you are giving yourself a better price and you save chips when it does not work
13:48 – 67s – the call pf is fine i think vs a minraise, you could 3bet even though the hand is not that great for that but g_peti is clearly opening very wide and with 2 shortstacks left to play he has to be carefull if you put pressure on him because you can bust him.
If you are calling you should definitely think about raising that flop. I mean it’s a dream flop for your hand – I’d raise to 41k planning to overbet shove any spade/5/8 turn that gives us equity. We could barrell smaller if an A comes, I’m not sure if K is a good card to bet – maybe if we are able to leave ourselves a nice shove stack for the river because on a K turn he prolly peels again with hands like QT/QJ that pick up a GS and we would have to fire the river to make him fold those. I think the flop raise should work often enough on it’s own so we do not need to be barrelling that often.
I’ll watch the rest later and let you know if I see more stuff
I did not like the thought process “I call planning to outplay him postflop”.
You are OOP with a hand that does not flop a lot of equity. I would still call the minraise pf but my thought process would be different – Im getting great odds with a hand that figuŕes to be best given the wide range of villain.
On the flop he is cbetting 100% of his range and our Ahigh is very often ahead, I think flatting is the only play there especially vs such a small cbet. Turn looks ok, river is ok too – I don't like leading river, villains range is polarized after he bets the turn – he is not valuebetting 88 and most often not event JJ-KK on the turn so the onlz bluffcatcher he could have is a hand like Q9 that hit the river and thats very rare. So he does not have many bluffcatchers weaker than our hand – he does not have a hand better than ours often either but I don't think we beat 50% of his calling range hence the river lead would not be +EV. The only value we can hope for is a bluff from his air as you said.
We did not outplay him in this hand we just played our cards well
imo
badabing78 said:
G0liath said:
11:10 g_peti min raises your BB again and you flat with A6o
you state with the intention of outplaying him. 5hTsTd flop pot is 30k you
check he bets 12k you call. Ah turn 54k pot you check he bets 24k you call. 9d
riv you check he checks you take it down he mucks. you state your check calling
riv hoping he bets out again. Think you should’ve
check raised this flop given that you folded
earlier, it’s even dryer than the previous one and you want to be sending
him the message that you will play back at him. Turn is fine check call. And i
would like to see a lead on the riv because i don’t see him 3 barrelling many
hands that you beat, he might have picked up a pair and may have some showdown
equity by now so get some value from it and bet. Also check the hand history
after he checks back it’ll show you what he had, might be valuable info for
later on.You are right it maybe a good option to 3b the flop but i think on this flop ist not too bad to just float with the intention to bet the turn to take it down. That was the plan, but when the A peels off i was pretty sure to get more value by checking. i think it is pretty difficult to get some value on the river from a weaker hand, but i thought the best (and safest way, i mean theres also still a small percentage that he got me beat too) way was check and hoping for a 3rd barrell.
13:51 – Q8o shove seems to be marginal but probably ok, especially if we expect him to call tighetr than he should. I reviewed the previous part a couple days ago so I don§t remember if BB was reshoving a lot – if he was passive 2,5x/folding pf might be a better option
15:58 – JTo 3bet – you 2x vs his minraise. I would make it a little bigger like 2.5-2.8x you are OOP and quite deep – about 60BB effective. We do not want him to call with his entire range. I’m very surprised he folded – not complaining I guess 🙂
17:10 –ATs –he never has TT+ so you have 2 overcards + gutshot + BDFD. I would not cbet that flop IP – the part of villains range that is continuing is not just calling you with these stacksizes so you will not be able to realize your equity if your plan is to cbet/fold.. You improve on 18 turn cards to a hand you can go with and a lot of other turns give you good bluffing opportunities. So it’s not like you are giving up and can’t win often when you check back.
Note: you are talking about not opening enough, I think you were doing fine, it’s ok to fold sometimes so you are not that obvious. I have the same problem and also think that I could be more aggressive but in this situation we are happy with the way the others are playing and we do not want to give them a reason to start to play back at us. We are happy with taking the blinds without a fight 1-2 times each orbit I think.
21:00 – 44 – seems too big of a shove imo, you have almost 30BBs effective, raise/folding should be much better
2nd video
0:00 – K3o – I’d open that one on the BTN
4:06 – 78o – I don’t think you need to bet as big on the flop, we are looking to fold out hands like 22/44-99/A5/89 etc. 13k should do the job. Betting the turn would only make sense if you plan to bet a lot of rivers because that card coordinates the board so hands like JT/J9/Q9 will peel again. That card also completes all the good draws from the flop FD/OESD so even though it looks like it gives us equity it really doesn’t because we are drawing to crappy hands that might not be good. I prefer just giving up on the turn – villain’s range improved a lot.
Calling the turn raise is very bad you just have to fold. On top of that lucky played like a ***** up until now so him raising turn is superstrong –shoving there with your hand is not a good idea.
9:25 – K6o – open on the BTN, there were more spots where you could have opened in this video than the first one. Kx is a good hand to open because of the blocker to the hands that are likely to call like KT/KJ/KQ or 3bet (AK/KK)
Whats that nonsense about running good and giving more respect to someone that catches a couple of good flops – you mean it’s more likely he’ll get strong hands again or wat? 🙂
10:10 – Q7s – holy shit you barely saved this hand on the river – flop is standard but it immediately struck me that the guy who allways cbet 1/2 pot until now suddenly wakes up and bets so big. When he bets the turn I think you are almost allways behind especially with how he played the KJ on 89T8 earlier, he is trying to protect his hand because he is afraid you have a FD. I think the worst hand he has here is QJ/AQ, he is not barrelling air here and he is not betting so big with air on the flop – this is a fold imo. Thank god you decided to bluff the river and did not check it back – I think you were behind here for sure.
10:46 – 22 – you could have cbet that A58r flop because BB has shown to be calling with gems like K2s pf so he has a lot of hands he will fold but I like the check vs him more. He will let you know if he has a hand or not and you can delay cbet turn and river if he checks back because you know he would have bet the flop with all his Ax hands and he will check back at least some of his air and most if not all of his marginal hands.
11:04 – T8o OTB open
10:05 – A2o fold to cold 4bet – played fine but you should have hollywooded a while, maybe ask in the chat something like „AK?“ and then reluctantly fold your perceived AQ just to not let g_peti know you are light as you did by instamucking
14:30 – 67o – Im not sure about that pf call, other than that it’s ok. I was horrified when it looked like you are going to bet the river. The fact that he „showed weakness“ does not mean that you can bet for value and I’m not sure what you mean by taking it down. You either bluff or valuebet, bluffing there does not make sense, he will not fold a better hand than yours and you can’t valuebet because you do not beat 50% of his river calling range.
I would have not been as confident that you have the best hand either – fish are afraid of the flushes so he could very well have checked back an overpair when the flop flush draw completed on the turn. I would not have been happy about calling a river bet from him either (that does not mean we should bet ourselves though) people are rarely bluffing by bet-check-betting more often than not they are pot controlling a made hand (almost allways better than yours) on the turn and valuebetting it on the river when you show them that you do not have the flush by checking. If they wanted to bluff it would make much more sense to bet the turn and put more pressure on you because on the river you know you just have to call one bet to see the SD, on the turn if you call there’s still the threat of a big river bet so you have to fold more.
On the other hand donks play randomly so it’s possible he could try to bluff this way – it would have been a tough spot if he bet.
15:15 – Q4s – this hand I think illustrates a big thing about your game that you should work on. You play too quickly and don’t think things through. When lucky donks flop you are raising for value, I presume you are looking to get it allin, you raise very quickly though and too small imo. He is either donking air and he folds, or he is donking a hand like 88 „to find out where he’s at“ and he folds or he is blockbetting a draw and he calls no matter how big you raise – so raise bigger.
On the turn he donks again, you instacall without even thinking for a second. I don’t get it, you were raising on the flop for value and now you are doing what? Pot controlling because you are afraid he has a bigger Q? Checking back river is strange to say the least.
17:20 – A3 in 3b pot on 345tt – this is a flop I would consider checking back, again a situation where we would hate to get check/raised with a pair+GS+overcard we have good equity vs all his overpairs. Cbetting has merit as a protection vs his overcards. I’m not sure myself what is better. Maybe post this hand in the discussion, would love to hear what the pros think.
20:00 – KTo – I‘m not sure it’s ok to call a 3bet there, villain has not 3bet before so we have to assume his range is tight and he is putting in almost 20% of his stack. If you are just looking to play fit or fold I think this might be a EV- call
21:49 – KTs – flop float is ok especially if you are planning to bluff club flush cards. I prefer check/raising the flop OOP but against this villain who did not show any barrelling tendencies floating OOP seems fine. On the turn you again do not think and rush your play. Just look at what you have done, there’s 97k in the pot after he bets and you raise it 430k more????? You are pretty damn lucky he had 2 pair because I think he is folding all worse than that. Raise to 110-150 and shove river.
thanx for your your thoughts this really helps!
dubrull said:
13:51 – Q8o shove seems to be marginal but probably ok, especially if we expect him to call tighetr than he should. I reviewed the previous part a couple days ago so I don§t remember if BB was reshoving a lot – if he was passive 2,5x/folding pf might be a better option
15:58 – JTo 3bet – you 2x vs his minraise. I would make it a little bigger like 2.5-2.8x you are OOP and quite deep – about 60BB effective. We do not want him to call with his entire range. I’m very surprised he folded – not complaining I guess 🙂
i didnt play back at him so much (like goliath already mentioned), so i guess the click back looked strong and he has a 75% fold to 3b pct, but you are right could have also betted bigger.
17:10 –ATs –he never has TT+ so you have 2 overcards + gutshot + BDFD. I would not cbet that flop IP – the part of villains range that is continuing is not just calling you with these stacksizes so you will not be able to realize your equity if your plan is to cbet/fold.. You improve on 18 turn cards to a hand you can go with and a lot of other turns give you good bluffing opportunities. So it’s not like you are giving up and can’t win often when you check back.
yap the bet was not good because its like the pros always say, when you bet you already should know what you wanna do if villain reraises. and in this spot i havent thought about that. i guess check back would have been the optimal play there.
Note: you are talking about not opening enough, I think you were doing fine, it’s ok to fold sometimes so you are not that obvious. I have the same problem and also think that I could be more aggressive but in this situation we are happy with the way the others are playing and we do not want to give them a reason to start to play back at us. We are happy with taking the blinds without a fight 1-2 times each orbit I think.
ty
21:00 – 44 – seems too big of a shove imo, you have almost 30BBs effective, raise/folding should be much better
agree was too big
Most Users Ever Online: 2780
Currently Online:
53 Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
bennymacca: 2616
Foucault: 2067
folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133
praetor: 1033
theginger45: 924
P-aire 146: 832
Turbulence: 768
The Riceman: 731
duggs: 591
florianm1: 588
Newest Members:
CSerpent
KJ
Tillery999
sdmathis89
ne0x00
adrianvaida2525
Forum Stats:
Groups: 4
Forums: 24
Topics: 12705
Posts: 75003
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1063
Members: 12010
Moderators: 2
Admins: 5
Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos
Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1