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Video Suggestion: Theory - 'What If' / Whole Range Analysis / Balancing
Kalculater
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November 19, 2014 - 12:40 am
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A theory video/series going really deep into a few hands by:

 

1. Showing the hand as played

 

2. Going back to preflop/flop/turn and doing certain What If scenarions: for example, preflop: if 3bet by villain who is xx/xx what do we flat? flop: when in this situation and this board what is our bet, check, check/raise range? if the board was mono-toned how does this affect these ranges? if the board was say Q45 instead of 458, how does this affect each range? turn: on certain turn cards how will this affect our bet or check range and same for rivers.

 

There are many elements that can be thrown in such as:

– bet sizing (how our size affects our range/their calling range)

– multiway pot (what if pot was multiway and not headsup)

– bubble-play (difference between if this was bubble/normal chip accumulation mode)

– villains playing style (agressive vs passive etc)

– and tonnes more.

  

I would also really like to see a video using CRev/Odds oracle for tournament situations. This could even be a different video/series where they take a few hands from the forum and break them down.

JD
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November 19, 2014 - 1:43 pm
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At the end of the second video in Broko's he does a little bit of that with one hand.  It takes up almost the last half of the video.  Here's the link …..os-part-2/

 

Even if you make the assumption everyone is playing basically the same and starting with the same stack size doing this type of analysis is really time intensive.  Through in things player type, stacks sizes, antes, bubble, and ICM pay jumps I'm not really sure you could make a comprehensive video.  With all the factors and decision points you could spend a whole series on just one situation, so I'm not sure it can be done.  Personally I would like to see someone attempt it using final table scenerios.

Foucault

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November 19, 2014 - 3:17 pm
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Thanks for the shoutout JD. I do try to at least mention how I'd play other hands in my range when I talk about important hands, but as you say it can be quite time consuming to talk through all the possible scenarios. That said, I have about two hours of a new series that attempts to do something similar to this (though much more theoretical) already recorded, so stay tuned!

Kalculater
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November 19, 2014 - 11:05 pm
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Whilst the video series i suggested could be considered labour intensive CRev and odds oracle definitely make it easier whilst visually showing what the author is trying to convey. It easily breaks our whole range into different parts (bet/check/fold etc) and is easily adaptable for changing cards (flop/turn/river).

 

Thanks for the reply Andrew. Sounds like an interesting series. Are you able to add to the series you are currently recording showing mathematically how we should indeed be balancing our ranges? Its a topic that is definitely interesting however not sure of the mathematical considerations/how to balance combo-wise. If you are not able to do this, can you point me in the right direction to somewhere that does show this? (books, vids or otherwise).

 

Also, have you had much experience using CRev or PPT/odds oracle for either cash or tournaments? Could you implement using these programs into a future series or video? even if only for one hand/situation.

Foucault

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November 20, 2014 - 10:23 pm
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” Are you able to add to the series you are currently recording showing mathematically how we should indeed be balancing our ranges? Its a topic that is definitely interesting however not sure of the mathematical considerations/how to balance combo-wise. If you are not able to do this, can you point me in the right direction to somewhere that does show this? (books, vids or otherwise).”

Can you say a bit more about what you're looking for here? Mathematics of Poker is the single best resource on this sort of thing, though it's a dense book and will require some additional effort on your part to translate frequencies in toy games into combinations in real life NLHE situations. But basically once you understand where the frequencies come from, it's just a matter of counting combos in your range and deciding which types of hands are best for each range – this is what my series will focus on.

I use CREV a bit in my Maryland Liveaments series (the most recent one on TPE). I think it's the one JD referenced.

Kalculater
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November 21, 2014 - 6:27 pm
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“”Are you able to add to the series you are currently recording showing mathematically how we should indeed be balancing our ranges? Its a topic that is definitely interesting however not sure of the mathematical considerations/how to balance combo-wise. If you are not able to do this, can you point me in the right direction to somewhere that does show this? (books, vids or otherwise).

Can you say a bit more about what you're looking for here?

 

Re-reading that didnt make as much sense as I thought it did when I originally posted. Essentially what i want to know is how we balance our range combo-wise mathematically at different bet sizings.

 

I have heard Nate and yourself talk about Mathematics of Poker a few times on the Thinking Poker podcast and will pickup a copy.

 

“basically once you understand where the frequencies come from, it's just a matter of counting combos in your range and deciding which types of hands are best for each range – this is what my series will focus on.”

 

That is highly related, if not what I am looking for. Expecting really good things from this series. Do you know the sort of ETA between you finishing and when the TPE staff release the series?

 

“I use CREV a bit in my Maryland Liveaments series (the most recent one on TPE). I think it's the one JD referenced.”

 

I have since watched the whole Maryland series and I am really glad that you have implemented CRev. It is such a deadly program when used in the correct way. Please use CRev in more future vids. Do you have experience with odds oracle/Pro poker tools and using it for NL/Tournaments? I believe CRev is a more useful program however Odds oracle does have its merits.

JD
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November 22, 2014 - 1:00 pm
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I've heard Andrew and Nate talk about balancing ranges and felt I've had cursory undering of the concepts.  It's funny now that I think about it Mike Caro has been talking about it for decades (judging from the dates of his articles; haven't been playing nearly that long) but I flat out didn't get it.  An example is somewhere in the Maryland Liveaments series Adrew faces a triple barrel donk bet and he talks about how you don't need to be able to put him on a hand and he will call with T8 (TP on wettish board, which is a better bluff catcher because of blockers) before he would with AA.  Before I would say I kinda get it, but not nearly enough to ever put that play into practice (folding an overpair but calling with TP). 

 

Not too long ago I read Applications of No-Limit Hold em, and more importantly work through the examples Mr. Janda goes through at the end for myself before reading them (long and tedious process).  I now feel I have a much much better understanding of both balanced and explotative ranges, while simultaneously realizing there is so much more I don't know.  I read Mathmatics of Poker a little bit at a book store one time, and it made my head hurt.  It was much too dense for me (this was also at a time when I had a job and couldn't devote as much time to the game).  I'm not saying that AONLHE is not dense, it is, just not not on the same level as MOP.  Then there's Ed Miller's 1%, which from my understanding is even less dense than AONLHE and covers the same concepts.  I was actually choosing between 1% and AONLHE shortly after 1% was released, and Mr. Miller's cost more and I just didn't like his marketing.  It felt like an Amway recruitment; it just rubbed me the wrong way.  So theres my ringing endorsement of AONLHE, but I'm sure MOP and 1% will be just as good as long as you put pen to paper and try using the concepts to balance your own ranges.  I should also mention that AONLHE goes through 6-max cash game scenerious assuming everyone has 100BB stacks.  However there is no reason why you can't use the same concepts and apply them to different stack sizes and antes, it will just take some work.  

 

As far as software I've tried the free versions of Flopzilla, Combonator, Equilab, and CREV.  Of those I think the registered version of Combonator would be best for range balancing exercises.  It has a standard hand selection chart, and you can color code each hand into groups, which would be correlated to what action you choose.  I probably didn't say that well, but an example would be group1 hands would be your c/c range, group2 would be c/r as a bluff, group3 would be c/r for value, and group4 c/f.  If certain combos of hands are in different ranges (for example AhQx is in your bluff raising range but the rest or in your folding range) then it just shows up as gray, which you could mouse over to see exactly where you put each individual within that combo.  There are only 8 groups which probably isn't enough given the possible decision points so you might have to do analysis one street at a time.  I have a feeling the most effective would be to use Combonator to slice up your range on each street and copy/paste them into CREV decision points, but I haven't been too keen on spending $145 to find out. Odds Oracle seems like a cool and useful tool once you learn how to use it, but visualizing balanced ranges doesn't seem to me like its is one of it's strengths. 

Kalculater
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November 24, 2014 - 6:03 pm
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JD,

 

Thanks for your long and involved reply. In relation to the hand in Andrew's series you mentioned I think those spots are really interesting. Its something I have heard Ben Sulsky (Sauce123) go on about when considering calling as a bluff catcher its better to have blockers. Its something Ive never really understood deeply and mathematically. Something CRev can probably help quantify and give insights into. 

 

I am going to check out the books you mentioned, thanks.

 

I have CRev, odds oracle and flopzilla. Whilst i am not highly proficient in all of them I do know the basics of CRev and odds oracle and use flopzilla quite a bit. Whilst they are awesome tools, they are such time consumers. I find visual learning the easiest method for learning and using a program like combonator or Poker ranger definitely helps.

redvulture61
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November 28, 2014 - 10:06 pm
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I recommend you download pokersnowie or get a membership down at RIO if you want more in depth theory videos on balancing ranges. For $100, and 14 videos a week its worth the money. As for Pokersnowie, you can download a 1 month free trial. Its a great program, it will give you feedback on hands you have played and highlight all the mistakes you make. 

Kalculater
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November 29, 2014 - 6:16 pm
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I had pokersnowie for quite a while and found it useful, even though it didnt do tournament situations. Essentially im looking to learn the methodology/mathematics behind balancing and apply it myself, not be told by a program. Ive also become quite skeptical of snowie now that they have updated their AI as it has drastically changed some plays and their associated EVs when pokersnowie was already marketed as a ‘GTO/near optimal’ solution. If it was already so close to optimal it really should not have changed certain plays so drastically.

I have an active RIO sub at the moment.

Dreamstrike13
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March 5, 2015 - 6:05 pm
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This is a great thread/idea. Hope some videos can be made with these themes in mind.

I like the idea of a study group and/or a dedicated section on the forums where we could upload CR EV trees or link GTO range builder trees.

Kalculater
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March 5, 2015 - 11:29 pm
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Dreamstrike that is an absolutely brilliant idea. I thoroughly enjoyed making CRev models and i feel like they give huge insights through a visual medium (my preferred learning style). I have been a bit slack due to working fulltime + fulltime masters but i do endeavour to get back into it.

 

I will post a separate topic in the suggestion section so if you could post a reply it would help.

theginger45

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March 13, 2015 - 9:28 am
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After reading this, I'm now kinda tempted to make a 6-part series where we look at a CREV analysis of one hand played 6 different ways. Maybe this is something you guys would be interested in?

Sen
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March 13, 2015 - 9:50 am
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Yes, this sounds awesome, Ginger! Do it. : )

Riar
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March 13, 2015 - 3:30 pm
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theginger45 said:

After reading this, I'm now kinda tempted to make a 6-part series where we look at a CREV analysis of one hand played 6 different ways. Maybe this is something you guys would be interested in?

Personally im not a fan of this idea…6-part video means more than half a month def too long to spend on one hand imo…

Kalculater
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March 13, 2015 - 8:06 pm
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I am highly interested in a series like that Matt. If people think 6 parts is too long possibly could do a 3 or 4?

 

I personally think 6 parts is optimal.

JD
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March 14, 2015 - 2:23 pm
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The standard series format here is 40-60 minute videos, in a 4-6 or more part series.  The reason is that's about how long it takes to get through a deep run in any particular tournament, or that's about how much you can dive into any single theory topic.  

 

That doesn't have to be the case for the type of video being discussed here.  You could take one hand and make it a 1-2 part series.  With everything there is to talk about (how player reads and stack sizes influence, which hands go into which lines {c/r, c/r/f, b/f, b/c, ect} on each street, how sizing effects which hands go into which lines, which lines have no hands in them, for all 4 streets of action) 1-2 parts seems about right for one hand.  And I think this type of analysis can be beneficial in a vacuum.  Meaning if you wanted to do a 6 part series you can take a random hand from a live event, then when done with that take a random hand from an online hand that's in a totally different stage of the tournament with totally different player types.  

 

So basically I say do just one hand in 1-2 parts and see how it goes.  Get feedback and build from there.  If it goes well then plan a 6 part series.

Dreamstrike13
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April 2, 2015 - 3:33 am
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Really like JDs idea!

florianm1
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January 12, 2016 - 9:24 am
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theginger45 said
After reading this, I’m now kinda tempted to make a 6-part series where we look at a CREV analysis of one hand played 6 different ways. Maybe this is something you guys would be interested in?

it seems like you are having a run it once account surprisedsurprisedsurprised

i generally would like to see an entire series on how to use CREV for MTT players. Maybe a series that looks at all the aspects:

0.) setting it up and use it 101.

1.) generating preflop ranges (unexploitable vs max exploitative) for different scenarios.

2.)simple river spots 

3.)simple turn spots

4.) flop spots with alternatives e.g. bet sizing, lines and so on

5.)complex post flop like multi way

 

There you go a 6 part series kiss

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