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Video idea - How to play certain stack sizes - specifically 15-25bb
michae1di11on
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April 17, 2014 - 6:43 pm
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I know this video was made by Big Dog years ago but I've heard him saying that he doesnt play 20bb stack as he used to. Some people are check shoving flops, shoving over raises, others are cbetting and folding to 14bb to resistance.

I'd love to see a new video on how to play this trouble stack with hand history examples of different factors leading to 14-28bb stacks being played in different ways in similar levels of the tournament….. ya dig?

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Killingbird
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April 19, 2014 - 4:34 pm
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great idea.  We'll get someone working on this.

michae1di11on
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May 1, 2014 - 1:59 pm
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Cheers man. The exact reason this site is the best ^. A quick reply and feedback being implemented instantly.

ttwist

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May 2, 2014 - 3:25 pm
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i like a 4 part series part 1 100bb deep, part 2 50-99bb deep, part 3 20-49bb deep, part 4 under 20bb

jacobsharktank
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May 2, 2014 - 4:34 pm
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so much of short stack strategy can be based heavily in math (i guess it all can), and lots of decisions at this size are sort of binary…like it's either right or wrong. it's sort of difficult to be in between (it feels this way to me) or have multiple options available because everything is a huge chunk of your stack, and at that point becomes really easy to see +ev or -ev. I think doing this math or even showing that it (this would be ranges for stealing, ranges for restealing, ranges for restealing vs adjusted ranges, open shoving vs adjusted ranges) exists would be greatly beneficial to anyone not familiar with it already. i know some profitable players who have developed intuitively what to do at these stack sizes but clearly have obvious (in my eyes) leaks.

 

It's really interesting to me because things that are obvious are only so because of your experiences leading up to that point. Known unknowns and all that. 

 

Man. I love this stack size haha. If you don't find someone that wants to make this video series, I know a guy 😉

michae1di11on
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May 2, 2014 - 4:44 pm
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Part 4 or maybe a part 5 could be based on calling all ins based on stack size, player type, how good the player is, icm and table positions. Also whether you open and get shoved on for 18bb or villain just jams into you for 13bb. Calling shoves hasn't really been explored yet from what I see and it's one of the most important parts of tournament play. It could be a really helpful series

jacobsharktank
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May 2, 2014 - 5:04 pm
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Calling 3b shoves is something I've actually explored quite a bit on my own. It requires understanding of the type of villain you have (as all decisions are ha) to get their ranges, then throwing them with your own range. Personally, one of the most gratifying feelings for me as a tournament player is raise/calling someone's shove with a range that's profitable against their own, and they won't even notice!

little tid bit for when you have a player likely to flat with AA to induce further action and instead they just 3b shove. They're almost capped. You can remove some number of combos of KK+ and actually find out just how many bb your initial open profits and INCLUDE the tree branch off where you have an opponent shove over.

With some hands this is easy, like AQ, TT, QQ. Others, it kinda gets close…and it becomes especially tiring when you then add suited any number of suited blocker hands (think A5s) to their ranges. It becomes a lot easier to use a calculator program to do so. I like writing the math out by hand, but it's more out of practice than anything else.

 

edit: missed you meant calling open shoves with like 1.5x the shove. yah these are interesting, though I'm lead to believe that as long as your range to call is profitable over their shoving range, up to a certain point, the difference between your stack and theirs might not matter at all. they're simply profitable or costly decisions. i like to think about every decision's impact on the greater picture (“no one snowflake feels responsible for the avalanche” kinda thinking), but when youre dealing with under 20bb, the math becomes pretty discrete.

lafauriea
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May 5, 2014 - 1:57 pm
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Go ahead, would be a great stuff especially 30bb and less and put the emphasis on “situational” play as Rivermen123 talked about in an other thread.

 

ttwist said:

i like a 4 part series part 1 100bb deep, part 2 50-99bb deep, part 3 20-49bb deep, part 4 under 20bb

 

 

LanguidlyClinical
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July 13, 2014 - 12:52 pm
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i like a 4 part series part 1 100bb deep, part 2 50-99bb deep, part 3 20-49bb deep, part 4 under 20bb

yeah (cue sarcasm)…or, even better, let’s turn it into a 100 video series called “Poker, life and the universe”.

Seriously, if someone does ever get round to making a video like this, could it please have some mathematical rigour. Like could you work out at least the chipEV of the situations you describe (who knows? maybe even the icmEV).

Part 1: Opening ranges and how to play against 3bet shoves.

Part 2: Playing against small 3bets(when to fold/flat/shove)

Part 3: when we want to have 3bet-fold and 3bet-Call ranges as opposed to when we want to have a 3bet-shove range (and when we want a combination of the two).

Part 4: Designing ranges talked about in part 3

I think it’s a fantastic idea! Each part could have multiple videos or each part could be a series…doesn’t really matter.
What matters is that someone makes some videos where they look into a common and important situation in depth and with mathematical justification.

Are there any videos like this on this website?

LanguidlyClinical
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July 13, 2014 - 1:13 pm
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the first line of the last post was meant to be a quote

LanguidlyClinical
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July 14, 2014 - 9:10 am
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Part 5: Calling from the blinds(“blind defence” then) and “is it ever +EV to flat an open out of the blinds?”

theginger45

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July 14, 2014 - 8:32 pm
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LanguidlyClinical said:

Part 5: Calling from the blinds(“blind defence” then) and “is it ever NOT +EV to flat an open out of the blinds?”

FYP…defending the big blind is what all the cool kids are doing nowadays.

LanguidlyClinical
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July 14, 2014 - 11:51 pm
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fair enough…i meant “is it ever +EV to flat an open when not in the blinds?”

lafauriea
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October 18, 2014 - 5:32 pm
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UPsmile

theginger45

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November 10, 2014 - 6:31 am
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Just found this thread again, it's a pretty good idea for a series. I might put something together in the New Year that deals with this topic.

lafauriea
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November 16, 2014 - 3:45 pm
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Yessssss!

theginger45

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March 13, 2015 - 9:30 am
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Just wanted to notify everyone that my next series, coming out in a couple of weeks, deals with short stacked play and explores some issues to do with Nash ranges/GTO play/exploitative play. I think it's going to be a pretty good one, and it's inspired by this thread. So thanks for the suggestion!

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