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August 4, 2014
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Hi guys,
Hand is below:
888 Poker – $27.30+$2.70|1200/2400 Ante 250 NL – Holdem – 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
romet05 (BTN): 16.44 BB (VPIP: 5.88, PFR: 2.94, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 35)
TheSmith (SB): 26.58 BB (VPIP: 19.35, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 5.56, Hands: 63)
MisterKK (BB): 23.08 BB
Ripped (UTG): 38.13 BB (VPIP: 14.71, PFR: 8.82, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
ActionBob (UTG+1): 42.97 BB (VPIP: 17.44, PFR: 13.09, 3Bet Preflop: 3.66, Hands: 196)
8OchoCougar8 (MP): 17.86 BB (VPIP: 15.79, PFR: 6.84, 3Bet Preflop: 2.63, Hands: 191)
Hap1wldfree (MP+1): 17.69 BB (VPIP: 32.46, PFR: 3.57, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 114)
Redhotmomma (CO): 9.45 BB (VPIP: 21.13, PFR: 9.06, 3Bet Preflop: 2.88, Hands: 356)
8 players post ante of 0.1 BB, TheSmith posts SB 0.5 BB, MisterKK posts BB 1 BB
Pre Flop: (pot: 2.33 BB) MisterKK has A
6
fold, [color=red]ActionBob raises to 2 BB[/color], fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, MisterKK calls 1 BB
Flop: (5.33 BB, 2 players) 3
8 A
MisterKK checks, [color=red]ActionBob bets 2.13 BB[/color], MisterKK calls 2.13 BB
Turn: (9.58 BB, 2 players) T
MisterKK checks, [color=red]ActionBob bets 4.79 BB[/color], MisterKK calls 4.79 BB
River: (19.17 BB, 2 players) 4
MisterKK checks, [color=red]ActionBob bets 14.38 BB[/color], MisterKK calls 14.06 BB
[spoil]MisterKK shows A 6 (One Pair, Aces) (Pre 29%, Flop 15%, Turn 0%)
ActionBob shows A T (Two Pair, Aces and Tens) (Pre 71%, Flop 85%, Turn 100%)
ActionBob wins 47.28 BB
[/spoil]
I was wondering if I played this one ok. I think flop call is ok. Turn call can be justified as well. But the river shove got me thinking a lot. Thought about folding this hand on the turn, but then called it because he didnt bet too much. When he put me all in on the river, I started thinking he(vpip 15, pfr 11) could be doing this with strong pairs like KK, QQ, JJ as well. If he had AA, he may have chosen to trap me and take a different line. So I made the call to see the bad news.
There were about 40 players left and bubble is at 30. I dont really care about mincashing so making it to the money is nonissue. I was 19th when I played this hand and a double up would put me in top 5 and make me a strong favorite.
Looking forward to hearing your ideas on the hand.
October 9, 2014
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I`m not a hugh fan to call somebody utg raise(even when V opens from late position) with a weak A6 hand, I think the main mistake here is pre.
What do you dominate? If V would have a A hand that you dominate then that would be A5,A4,A2 on the turn + even no backdoor draws
As played: flopcall yes(cause his range still can be pretty wide, depends on V C-bet freq), turn fold.
You think V starts barreling 3 streets for value with a JJ,QQ,KK hand with an A on the flop?
That V holds AA seems rare to me cause the A you hold and a A on the flop.
Ofcourse I dont know if you had somekind of dynamik/read on this player.
Curious what the others think about it.
September 14, 2014
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Calling from the BB here is fine as played , hero is getting good odds to call. That said I think that if you're going to play marginal hands from the BB you're going to get into spots like this a lot of the times and being OOP just makes it even more difficult to know where your at. Considering that this is a raise from UTG and he's bet 3 streets their range is likely to be strong , so i'd discount marginal hands for sure which would only leave bluffs/monsters in their range., you gotta think what hands are you beating here when you make this river call? I don't see you beating much apart from bluffs. Seems like V is repping a hand like AK/AQ maybe even AJ or a set like 88/TT.
I'd call flop bet as played, and fold turn IMO.
May 30, 2012
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Bob is a very solid player both online and esp LIVE. He has GOOD results in both.
I call from the BB and flop. Fold on turn………… Someone like Bob isn’t making too many mistakes. If he’s betting, he has the good or a solid hand.
August 4, 2014
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…../15030028/
This is what I could find about him on wsop. Definitely not very interesting and behind me overall.
What metrics/sites do you use to call someone good? I am just wondering.
I also think that posting the results in advance is causing people to be more results oriented, so I think it is better not to post the results in the future.
August 4, 2014
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Thanks for the comments guys. I will not be the tightest guy in this world, so I am definitely defending my bb against a min raise.
When I call with A6o, my cutoff for moving forward with the hand is an ace on the board. This would still not make me feel comfortable, but if I will fold to a bet, I shouldnt call in the first place to see a flop.
What I was wondering here is not the results itself. Its how I handled the situation and my thought process.
You guys are saying he has a strong range. Of course he has, but KK is strong too. And I said he could have had pairs and my call was based on this assumption.
Did I know I could have been knocked out? Yes. There was a chance I was beaten by the kicker. However, the line I took was weak. I played it cautiously and put the ball on him. By check calling, he may have put me on a draw and wanted to get me off of the hand. As I had showdown value, I made a crying call and lost. Its not a big deal, but I was just wondering if this is wrong all from the beginning and where is the biggest mistake if there is any.
However, the real question is that, how often will I succeed doing this? One of the reasons I did this is because I have seen that happen a lot on wsop. Even with air, people are doing this especially before the bubble.
So dont you guys agree that he could have had pairs in his hand?
September 14, 2014
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i did agree that calling from the bb is fine as played i also agreed with calling the flop, that's a no brainer.
Try to think what the top/medium/bottom of your range is when you call the flop and turn?
He could have pairs in his hand 4 shur , hands like 99JJ/QQ/KK/AA , but given the postflop action , you can discount some of these hands , QQ for instance, unlikely to go for 3 streets here.
I just think we can discount marginal hands from his range , so that leaves monsters/draws and air , if he's a good player he is very much capable of 3barreling with a draw here like KsQs , JsQs and putting u in a tough spot for your tourny life.
The question will then be how wide will his bluffing range be on the river?
also when you do have a hand that has decent showdown value , your aim is to try to get to showdown for cheap , in this case it busted u out! 😛
August 4, 2014
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Thanks for the comment bro. I guess we are getting somewhere now.
I called him with the mid of my range. I am pretty flexible/loose when the correct pot odds are there because I trust myself enough for the postflop play and this is one exception where I couldnt get myself out of trouble.
So I want you guys to take consider looking at it from his perspective based on what we already established here.
I have AT and min raising from early position. Considering the stack size, I would have played it the same way.
Then the big blind(me) calls and at this point the villain cant really put him on anything because the hero is loose and tends to complete the blinds when getting good odds.
Also, hero almost always completes instead of reraising from the blinds with his whole range.
So, actually hero can be holding anything and hero has shown AK, AQ kind of hands from the blinds after playing them passively for a surprise take down.
Now, hero completes and then checks back. It looks weak, but I always check to the raiser with my whole range on the flop.
So the cbet and the amount the villain fired is totally justifiable, and my call is fine. My plan is to reevaluate.
At this point, hero thinks the villain can have Ax, AJ+, all pocket pairs, broadway cards with or without a flush draw.
So hero thought checking here is the best option as he is not sure yet if he has the best hand and he doesnt want to semibluff as he has a showdown value. So he sets up his mind to check call again.
Now looking at it from the villain. Hero called cbet, so villain can also put hero in the same range except for strong aces because people usually want to reraise to take the pot immediately rather than playing them out of position.
Villain bets half the pot again after hitting the 10. Hero thinks villain can simply be double barreling with his draws and pocket pair holdings and hero calls because villain only bets half the pot.
This is when hero gets confused. All draws missed. Hero checks and villain puts him all in for about 3/4 of the pot IMMEDIATELY.
So the question is, does the villain know hero paired his Ace with his loose image. I think hero looks to the villain like he played his draws passively. Then why would the villain put the hero all in if he knows hero doesnt have anything?
With this line I could have had a set easily.
His final all in didnt make sense to me and didnt fit into the story. I dont think he played this hand and got value out of me knowing that hero paired his weak ace. If he would have a real strong holding, he would have bet little to either induce or get more value out of me.
And now getting back to my original point. How many times am I losing this battle versus winning it? I decided to call because I thought most often than not I will take the pot down. Also, I was not the one who was being aggressive, I was controlling the pot by check calling and it got out of control because of him.
I hope we can elaborate more on this 🙂
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Never,
It's good that your're posting such a long analysis of your own thought process and you seem willing/eager to revise your thinking, so I'll try to help you with that. I'd say that you are thinking too statically about your and Villain's hands and not about how ranges will change from street to street.
The fact that you called and hit an Ace doesn't necessarily commit you to going to the river. This is especially true againt an EP raiser.
I think you're wrong to assume he would play JJ – KK this way. This triple barrel line ought to be, and usually is, polarized. So basically it will consist of hands better than yours (perhaps as weak as AK) and then hands with very little showdown value. The question is how many hands with minimal showdown value V is raising in the first place.
Against a LP raiser, I like calling down a lot more, because there are a lot of draws he could have barreled on the turn that missed on the river: diamonds, spades, gutshots. But is an EP raiser playing QJo? Is he playing a lot of random suited hands that don't contain an Ace? Probably not, and this restricts the number of bluffs he can have in his range.
I also disagree with your conclusion that Villain shouldn't play strong hands this way. I think he absolutely should play his hand exactly the way he did. If you have nothing, he probably wont' get paid again anyway, so there's no sense in trying to target that part of your range. He doesn't have to put you on either air or Ax. He can recognize that you might have either and then just make a decision about which part of your range to target. If I'm in his shoes, I'm shoving river with AK+ and also most of my air.
Your hand is a good bluff-catcher in that you block the Ax hands, but the problem I think is that Villain just doesn't have enough bluffing candidates in his range, so I'd say this is a good call on the flop but I'd fold the river and maybe even the turn. I'm inclined to agree with “folding” that this ought to be at the bottom of your range for making it to the river and therefore a fold.
May 30, 2012
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Love what Andrew and Folding had to say.
We have spoke both, I know you don't know me personally, but TRUST ME. If I'm saying someone is GOOD then I say he/she HAS the results. It's because I know for a fact. I might be bad at poker, but I know kinda what Im talking about when it comes to players. You don't hear me saying how GOOD I am. Cause I'm a Donk. but I do have some nice resutls both online and LIVE, LOL. Playing a hand might be a different story.
Bob hasn't put up a lot of volume on WSOP. I wouldn't be shocked if he plays more on Party/Borgata.
Yes, he has 39 tourneys on WSOP. Here's WHY he's GOOD. Live poker he has OVER 1.3 MILLION in winnings. A bunch of HUGE wins at Borgata and other places in Vegas.
Sooooooooooo, That and knowing how he plays is why I said he's good. DON'T go by what the POKERDB says or your HUD. Did you see him do something wacky or bluffy earlier…… He is kinda pretty straight forward boring poker at times.
As far as the hand from my point of view. You had 23bbs to start. I think the call from bb is fine & flop. Bob's paying attention to your stack and knows how much to put in on EVERY street. Esp on the turn when he hits two pair. He's going to bet a small amount to suck you in and then pile on the river like he did. Redmomma or Ocho would have bluffed you, but in my opinion NOT Bob in that spot.
Ok, enough of me.. Go crush. See you at our next table. I'll let you form opinions on players before telling you from now on, lol. GLGL
September 14, 2014
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@neverAA your welcome mate 😉
i totally agree with andrew , very well written , pretty much nailed it.
just 1 thing though, you said in the above post “Hero thinks villain can simply be double barreling with his draws and pocket pair holdings and hero calls because villain only bets half the pot”
that half of a pot bet can get u into sticky situations on the river ,just think about what hands you are beating here and what your range looks like when you call the turn. Do you think you're ahead of villians value range on the turn? there's alot of questions and its not easy but once you can discount certain hands from villians range it becomes so much easier.
you thought v was on a flush draw which missed on the river it seems , so you made a hero call thinking top pair weak kicker was good , sometimes it will be ,dont get me wrong , though like andrew said against a UTG open it's unlikely he has enough bluffing candiates in his range to make this call profitable on the river.
also have a question to andrew, what do you think the top of hero's range will be when he calls turn? considering that he's call from the big blind makes a difference , do you think TT and AK is unlikely to be at the top of their ange since they would have likely got this in pre flop given that they've only got 23bb?
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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folding_aces_pre_yo said:
@neverAA your welcome mate 😉
i totally agree with andrew , very well written , pretty much nailed it.
just 1 thing though, you said in the above post “Hero thinks villain can simply be double barreling with his draws and pocket pair holdings and hero calls because villain only bets half the pot”
that half of a pot bet can get u into sticky situations on the river ,just think about what hands you are beating here and what your range looks like when you call the turn. Do you think you're ahead of villians value range on the turn? there's alot of questions and its not easy but once you can discount certain hands from villians range it becomes so much easier.
you thought v was on a flush draw which missed on the river it seems , so you made a hero call thinking top pair weak kicker was good , sometimes it will be ,dont get me wrong , though like andrew said against a UTG open it's unlikely he has enough bluffing candiates in his range to make this call profitable on the river.
also have a question to andrew, what do you think the top of hero's range will be when he calls turn? considering that he's call from the big blind makes a difference , do you think TT and AK is unlikely to be at the top of their ange since they would have likely got this in pre flop given that they've only got 23bb?
A4 comes to mind immediately. Granted if Hero has tons of Ax in his range he would need to call with some of it against a Villain who has enough bluff candidates, but even againt those players I'd rather call when I don't have a diamond or spade in my hand.
August 4, 2014
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Guys,
Thank you so much on this valuable information. I dont post here a lot with my own questions, but I really needed the mistakes I did to be smacked on my face.
The most important thing I learnt out of this discussion is that I should try to put the villain on a range rather than a specific hand. When I started the hand, I told myself to be cautious if I hit the ace, but somehow found myself calling 3 streets to get knocked out of the tournament.
Good thing is I barely do this mistake and I usually find myself running deep in tournaments, so I think this small improvement will definitely get me deeper.
P-aire: unlike your statement, I totally respect you and take you seriously. You are a player that tries to improve all the time just like I do. And I appreciate that you give me hints about these players since in NJ we play with the same people all the time and I already designated the regs and playing accordingly.
If I knew he was that straightforward, I would have folded on the turn the most with my holding.
Another thing that slipped from my mind when I was doing that, and that I am really angry about myself is that I forgot about my own principles. Such as targeting pots that I open, stealing, and trapping. Playing marginal hands especially out of position is definitely not a profitable play in the long run. Also, I should have asked myself : “Do you really have to play this hand till the hand?”.
Anyway, thanks to all of you guys a lot again for making things clear for me and get it sink into my brain for my next challange…
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