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Why is it standard to open for 2.5-3.5X before antes and only 2X or so post antes?
derSchwartz
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June 18, 2014 - 2:42 pm
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Sorry if this seems like an obvious quesiton to some, but I find myself feeling and believing this fact more than I understand it.  I have been employing this strategy and do find that it works – post ante the min raises get respect, often folds whereas pre ante it seems to provide for good playability to raise 3X.  But why? 

I will explain what confuses me:

-It seems that there is very little for the big blind to protect when the blinds are 20/40 with no antes and deep stacks.  Why do we have to raise 3x to play effectively?  Is it because our intention in opening is different in these early stages than it is in later stages (ie. creating situaitons where we play big pots only when we dominate early vs. taking down blinds and antes later) and in order to do this we need to raise to 3x otherwise too many players will call?

-On the above note, it also seems that there is more reason for the BB to defend when there are antes, so I’m surprised that this doesn’t make it necessary to raise more once antes are in place.  Is it because a thinking player knows that people are raising wide once antes are in place, so they are more likely to reraise and make us fold, which means we should risk less and min raise?

-When the antes are in place, it seems we would be willing to wager more times the big blind because we are also winning more when we get folds and we are actually often seeking folds rather than implied odds.

Does it have to do with stack sizes relative to the blinds?  I know Andrew said something in another thread about stack sizes relative to blinds not impacting the math regarding whether or not min raise open is correct, but I don’t know if that applies to this subject, of open sizing at different stages. My guess is, again, that in early stages we are dealing with implied odds, so the open itself doesn’t have to be mathematically sound.

I feel that the answer is simple but I’m just not certain of it.  Thanks for reading.

Foucault

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June 19, 2014 - 11:39 am
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It's possible that opening for the minimum in most situations is GTO. That's how PokerSnowie plays except when on the button with certain stack sizes (actually opens for 1/2 pot but that's most likely because that's the smallest bet size it has). This enables you to play more hands.

There are a few reasons why many good MTT players make larger raises in the early stages, and I think you are on the right track:

1. Stacks are deeper, and a min-raise may not give you room to access the full stack optimally after the flop in a single-raised pot. Once stacks are shallow, you don't have to be as concerned about building the pot. I don't think this logic holds in all circumstances, because being able to play more hands is in theory more important than building the pot with your strongest hands, but it does make sense when dealing with overly loose opponents, which brings us to

2. At loose tables where opponents will call raises with overly wide ranges, you can exploit this mistake by raising larger with a stronger range of hands. Once antes are introduced, it becomes correct to play a lot more hands to a raise, especially a min raise and especially out of the blinds. Many of these same players are ironically not loose enough at this stage, or just play badly enough post-flop, so they become exploitable in a more profitable way via small raises that succeed in stealing the pot more often than they “should”.

Both of these are exploitive adaptations, and I think it's likely that at a table where all players are evenly matched and play very well, min-raising both pre- and post-ante might well be correct. A less skilled player at this same table could probably minimize his disadvantage by tightening up his opening range and making larger raises both pre- and post- (but especially post-) ante. This is essentially the argument of the book Kill Phil.

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