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Why?
Mujaro
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February 15, 2015 - 5:40 pm
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Why is this guy calling with just A high ott. I just dont get it. This is why i called. Guy has a decent winrate. I just dont get it. It tilted the hell out of me when i saw his hand. I see this clips where they say, ooh but when i think about it, it doesnt really make sense he has an ace here…. yeah right. Except when they play against me.  

 

PokerStars - $0.91+$0.09|400/800 Ante 75 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 54.91 BB (VPIP: 10.00, PFR: 10.53, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
MP: 26.98 BB (VPIP: 26.32, PFR: 27.03, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 39)
CO: 18.81 BB (VPIP: 25.40, PFR: 20.69, 3Bet Preflop: 4.35, Hands: 66)
BTN: 30.81 BB (VPIP: 15.07, PFR: 10.23, 3Bet Preflop: 4.71, Hands: 221)
Hero (SB): 23.29 BB
BB: 20.52 BB (VPIP: 13.58, PFR: 10.13, 3Bet Preflop: 6.06, Hands: 81)
UTG: 16.08 BB (VPIP: 12.00, PFR: 6.43, 3Bet Preflop: 3.13, Hands: 175)

7 players post ante of 0.09 BB, Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.16 BB) Hero has  8spade Qheart 

fold, fold, fold, fold, [color=red]BTN raises to 2 BB[/color], [color=red]Hero raises to 5 BB[/color], fold, BTN calls 3 BB

Flop: (11.66 BB, 2 players)  9heart Qclub 5heart 
[color=red]Hero bets 4 BB[/color], BTN calls 4 BB

Turn: (19.66 BB, 2 players)  Aspade 
Hero checks, [color=red]BTN bets 21.71 BB and is all-in[/color], Hero calls 14.2 BB and is all-in

River: (48.06 BB, 2 players)  3diamond 

Hero shows  8spade Qheart  (One Pair, Queens) (Pre 39%, Flop 83%, Turn 11%)
BTN shows  4club Aclub  (One Pair, Aces) (Pre 61%, Flop 17%, Turn 89%)
BTN wins 48.06 BB
Mujaro
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February 15, 2015 - 6:33 pm
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why is he even calling my 3bet. I hate these kind of players. They just call everything. The thing is i would fold. And that would usually be a bluff if i did that otr. Because when i have that kind of ace i would never go allin with it. But he apparently figured out i had a weaker hand and then made it look like he was bluffing. Wp, but highly annoying. So its that obvious to him i have a weaker hand so he puts me allin with just an ace with no kicker hoping i will call. That annoys me even more. 

BigSnowball
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February 15, 2015 - 8:46 pm
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What did you think he had ?

BigSnowball
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February 15, 2015 - 9:06 pm
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I’m not being funny it’s what you’ve got ask. (I guess) He calls pre because of position, floats (questionably maybe but with back doors) when you check the turn and he shoves you gotta ask “what does he have?” Or “what do I beat?” You don’t beat any A, KQ, QJ, Q10, Q9, 99, 55 or other slow played monsters.
Don’t be annoyed. Look at the hand and ask what you could do a bit better. Watch lots of the videos on here and put into practice the lessons and things will improve sure enough.

Mujaro
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February 16, 2015 - 7:05 am
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I beat a 9, and the possibility he was drawing or a gutter, mayb j9s. Any AQ, KQ, QJ, or monster i am pretty sure he would v reraised because of the draws. It was that kind of a player.
I simply knew i had him otf.
This is what happened; i had some history with him, and he was getting lucky vs me every time. He induced my whole stack (i mean he doubled up) when he called with 94 or somethin and hits trips. The anoying part is that every time he made me feel like he was bluffing or had nothing or was floating when he had trips. I mean, some players get under ur skin. And this guy defnitly did. I wanted to strangle him.

 

The only thing i could v done better was folding otr imo. Or not threebet to begin with, but he was stealing more so. I wanted him to fold to the threebet which i would v done. Which i get confused about many times although i say to myself not to.  Too many times i (mostly unconsiously during play) i assume because i would not do that my opp wouldnt do so either. 

BigSnowball
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February 16, 2015 - 12:41 pm
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ok you know the dynamics of the table but my general point was to ask yourself different questions both during the hand and when reviewing as opposed to just “why me?”
Good luck

jacobsharktank
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February 16, 2015 - 1:05 pm
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While you're in a prime spot to 3b light or extend your value 3betting range (you kind of do both typically, like I'd 3b/call off midpairs but also 3b 68s A4s etc), Q8o won't play very well postflop and youre likely trying to learn to navigate these situations. Because of that, I'd probably just muck and choose something that plays better postflop. That's how I first got into the open/4bet shove game a few years ago when 5 million bets were being made preflop and you had players final tabling after getting in huge 80bb+ confrontations deep in the tournament with 83o vs 77 or something. I would open anything I thought would play well postflop (connectability), and if I were 3bet by a player in a spot I thought they'd likely to have air, I'd shove what would then play well vs a calling range. That's just how I sort of got into it. I didn't really do a lot of studying on this back then outside of looking at pokerstove and checking equities of my shoving vs their calling ranges.

 

Moving on, this is what villain sees- The big blind plays at most 20% of hands in this position (vpip+3b, though now that I think about it, vpip should include 3b, but for this example I'll assume it doesn't), meaning he folds 80% of the time. If you run similarly, you're folding around 80% of the time as well. That means combined, both you and the big blind are folding around 80%x80% = 64% of the time. If villain raises to 2bb, he's risking 2 to win 4.0625. If he sees a success rate higher than 2/4.0625 = 49.2% of the time, then he profits that difference. I just showed you how 20% defenses from the blinds results in 64% folds. 64-49.2= 14.8% That's huge! That's better than your equity on winning all ins preflop AK against QQ. (to most, that part is obvious, but bear with me (rawr)). This literally means he doesn't need cards. He can just put chips out there and he will make money. I like to think of it as a money button you push to print your dollars. So his range here should approach 100%, as opening every hand here is profitable, though its unlikely because most people aren't thinking that far.

 

All of the above has been known to anyone with a calculator and the patience for quite some time. Button opens are profitable as steals, who knew?! The next step is defending yourself from them so you don't get exploited. You 3bet or call with a certain range, and play from there. In this example, you 3b from .5bb to 5bb, risking 4.5bb to win 8.65625. 

Your villain then sees a decision as (1bb+5bb+.65625bb+2bb)/3bb or risking 3bb to win 11.65625bb. If the hand ends here, he needs 25.7% equity to make a neutral ev call/fold. Because it's going postflop, and he likely believes he'll outplay you in position, he actually doesn't even need that much equity because it's unlikely you go to showdown everytime. If you're 3betting as wide (not implying all hands between Q8o and AA are being 3b, nor that you're 3betting them every time) as Q8o, then you're getting postflop with a lot of hands that don't connect, and his hand doesn't matter. You'll cbet and ck/fold. You'll ck/fold. You'll cbet and cbet and ck/fold. You could even cbet/ cbet/ cbet and fold to a shove. 

 

(44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q5s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A4o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo) Here's a 30% opening range.

(TT+,A7s+,K8s+,Q8s+,J9s+,A8o+,K8o+,Q8o+,J9o+) Here's a stab at your 3betting range. It's about 23%.

Coincidentally, those two ranges are actually about 50% against each other. If villain were to fold any part of his range vs any part of your range, he's making an average mistake of what I think is 25% He needs 25.7% equity to call, he has 50% equity, folds are bad. He can choose to split up his range (as pretty much everyone does, even button clickers) so that he defends with a certain part, 4bets with a certain part, and folds a certain part, in an effort to maximise ev, as opposed to simply not being exploited (folding the btn open would be an exploitable spot for either you or the bb). If suited Aces are in his defend range, then we can simply look at the ev of calling against your range with that hand individually. A4s vs that 23% 3b range has 49.42% equity.

 

Basically, to answer your first and most important question (in my mind), “Why?” well, this is why. 

 

I just sat down and sort of rambled this all out, so I hope it's coherent and correct. If anyone has any questions about this, feel free to ask them in here. It might be best to message me on twitter, as I often forget to look back here. @jacob_sharktank

Mujaro
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February 16, 2015 - 3:02 pm
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Yes, it makes more sense. And @bigsnowball: it wasnt “why me” :p I dont do that shit. 

I guess thats wat also made furious, when someone thinks he is better then me and simply sees me as a atm. God… 

But yeah, im just gettin into these 3bet shit and all. Ur right bout that. And im not exactly a math player, though i do want to become better at it. THis cleared quite up a bit, though i need to go trough it a bit more.

But basicly i should 3b bigger for him to make unprofitable calls. Because 25% is almost any hand. 

 

Tx for ur reply! 

jacobsharktank
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February 16, 2015 - 3:20 pm
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you could 3b bigger vs this villain type yea. it would deny him correct odds to float. however, not ever player type is like that. you also don’t necessarily mind him flatting a ton of his opens. some villains (okay so this was like…2011 i think? idk i used to sort of joke around with jcinblue about it) and i see it a lot still, would flat all 3bets and just play fit or fold. like yea you can flat all 3bets that are small with your entire opening range if you want, but you have to defend it still. you don’t get to see all five cards and the hand isn’t over just because you called. villains used to constantly flat and then fold flop. i swear if i looked through facebook over the years interacting with poker people, all of my jokey advice or good luck was the same “3bet, cbet/fold. profit” people are better at it now, or at least don’t just fold (as you see by your villain floating the flop vs you) but basically if you find villains that don’t hand read well, you can just 3bet and barrel and they fold all their air that is better than you, all pairs that are under the board, and most aren’t just snap defending bottom pair all the way down. i really really don’t understand how anyone could play this game confidently (and be correct to have confidence) without that math because otherwise it feels to me like it’s “yo **** this im better than you i float and win”, but yah haha. have fun studying it. it’s really a ton of fun to see a villain fold 60% when they need to defend 50% and go “ah aha theres my money!”

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