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When do I go into stack preservation mode?
wager9
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March 16, 2015 - 12:09 am
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1500.3000.300 in a LIVE MTT. $500 entry fee. 280 players and we are down to 43 left with an average stack of about 125k or so. Top 27 places pay. I could really use some advice on a mindset going into this endgame phase. I dont know if I should be playing tighter, looser, gamble more, etc.

I have about 180k and V has about 115k and I have been solid for most of tourney TAG…but since last break I have a lot of 3 bet spots and taken them down with no showdowns so my image is a bit more active at this point.

V is a young Asian kid. He’s TAG for the most part.

This also a $200 Bounty tournament.

V raises UTG to 7500. I raise to 21k on BTN with QhQd. V tanks for a minute or 2, counts his chips and shoves for 94 more over my raise.

My question is…is this a spot I should fold? Do we put him on AA or KK every time here? Or am I allowing AK to get away with a stea here?

huge
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March 16, 2015 - 4:01 am
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wager9 said:

1500.3000.300 in a LIVE MTT. $500 entry fee. 280 players and we are down to 43 left with an average stack of about 125k or so. Top 27 places pay. I could really use some advice on a mindset going into this endgame phase. I dont know if I should be playing tighter, looser, gamble more, etc.

I have about 180k and V has about 115k and I have been solid for most of tourney TAG…but since last break I have a lot of 3 bet spots and taken them down with no showdowns so my image is a bit more active at this point.

V is a young Asian kid. He's TAG for the most part.

This also a $200 Bounty tournament.

V raises UTG to 7500. I raise to 21k on BTN with QhQd. V tanks for a minute or 2, counts his chips and shoves for 94 more over my raise.

My question is…is this a spot I should fold? Do we put him on AA or KK every time here? Or am I allowing AK to get away with a stea here?

I don't think I can fold here given all the details you've given (“a lot of 3-bet spots with no showdowns”, “young Asian kid”, proximity but not immediate proximity of the bubble, etc).

 

There is at least a decent chance he's just decided he's not going to let you get away with another 3-bet but he's OOP so he's giving you the pile.  

 

There is at least a decent chance that he would NOT shove AA or KK.  And there's more than a decent chance that AK is in his range.

 

If you call and lose you're not out, and you're not right on the bubble, so it's not some sort of ICM catastrophe.  

 

As for tighter/looser/gamble/stack-preservation … depending on how you implement them those might be overly restrictive concepts.  I think it depends a lot on what your table is presenting, how good of a spot you're in, how soon your table is likely to break, how strong or soft the field is overall, how effectively you expect to be able to run over the table as the bubble approaches, etc.

wager9
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March 16, 2015 - 4:15 pm
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Yeah I felt similar. I felt like his range was QQ,KK,AA,AK and on occasion JJ and perhaps he spazzes with TT once every now and again so i felt like it was REALLY CLOSE but likely +EV by a bit…

 

And this is where I get confused in MTTs. In cash, I snap call him here and don't think twice about it after. However (and this is didregarding the actual result of the hand) in tourneys – especially late in tourneys – I have heard, or read in books somewhere that these thin +EV spots might not be the best to take on in MTTs. I do understand on the bubble this is not the same scenario. In other words, i would likley fold here 100% on bubble for ICM reasons, and not getting correct $EV. On the other hand, I have read in other sources (from reputable and big winners at MTTs – ELKY and Scott Seaver cometo mind) that they really never care about this stuff and play to WIN the tournament; meaning if they feel it is +EV, even small, they are getting involved as the small $ jumps (and min-cashing) mean nothing to them.

 

And of course, this hand brought all of this to light for me last night. I really had not given a whole lot of thought to this area of my game. I knew it was there but I did not know how much it needs to be addressed in my game. I do hate when I make a poor decision in poker, but even worse, I hate when I am clueless as to what to even consider in a particular spot. And agian, this spot shined a light on it for me.

 

So yeah, at this point I am trying to figure out where I stand on the whole “i am getting close to the $$$, how should (if at all) this fact influence my decisions.”

OneTime1Time
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March 23, 2015 - 8:00 pm
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This is a call, always. If we run into AA, we still have 65k, which is 20bb. That will effect our bubble strategy, but having 295k is going to effect it in a much bigger way, and set us up for the deeeeeeeeep run.

 

Given the complete dynamic of what's going on here, QQ is just never a fold. I'm almost wanting to discount AA and maybe even KK from his range, purely because he is going to be more inclined to go to 4b to around 45k. He's going to want you to put the chips in the middle, and shoving here will eliminate everything but the nuts of your range. Which is why players do it with AK/AQ. I'm not saying he doesn't have AA/KK here, just that I tend to discount it. 

 

As for the mentality you want going into the endgame, there are a lot of factors that matter. Stack size is going to be a huge one. You can play a lot different with 50-100bb than you can with 10-20bb. The next biggest factor is how much does a min cash matter. While they say that you should never let this influence your decision, it's going to. So you need to be aware of that, and adjust for it. If you were taking a shot and had satellited into this event, the min cash might be a huge boost to your bankroll. For players more well stacked, they are playing for the win, and probably won't mind bubbling.

 

From my perspective, the only answer to your question posted in the title – Not until we have all the chips.

SIGABA
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March 23, 2015 - 11:39 pm
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Yeah this is a call. Push your chips in the middle and he will have a worse hand more often than not.

ltcolumbo
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March 24, 2015 - 12:57 pm
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I would add some food for thought (because its lunchtime):

  • strategy wise, I am not trying to get 60 BBs in preflop.  Effective stacks are about 38BB but still I am not in a position where I need to get that in pre-flop.  If I am below average in chips and/or we are far from the money and/or I feel like I have zero edge in the field, I'll play for a flip for 38BB if the situation feels right.  But here we clearly are cruising our way towards the money, and he shoved 31BB.  Just feels like I can find a fold and still have a ton of chips.
  • When he made it $7500 UTG (2.5x), and then you made it 21k, you are making a different statement than if you made it say $17k.  When you made it $21k, how did you decide the amount?  I sometimes see villains that a pre-flop four bet is always all-in because they assume after a 3 bet its all getting in. Including KK and AA.
  • You say he is TAG and he raised UTG and he's ready to 4 bet all-in regardless of his being able to fold and still have 35BB, does not leave me feeling confident vs. his range.  Any reason NOT to put him on JJ, KK, AA and AK?
  • I think many players HATE folding QQ to what they expect is AK.  But you are cruising with plenty of chips and spots left.  If this guy has 12BB or less, I cant call fast enough.  12-20BB I want to think about it, but probably call.  38BB? why?  (I mean, I need a reason to think its worth it.  ranges, card dead, etc)

As always, its table dynamics.  But if I am feeling good vs. the table, I can take less volatility and pass here and eat my 6-7 BB for better opportunities to go after shorter stacks.

I think the same argument applies if you had AK here.  I do agree that even this deep I am getting KK in here. 

Foucault

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March 24, 2015 - 4:27 pm
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These aren’t situations that you should be solving by feel. “I feel like I can wait for a better spot, I didn’t feel like I was ahead,” etc. These things are quantifiable, and the only way to improve your intuition and decision-making at the table is to try to quantify them.

You need about 40% equity for a cEV-neutral call. Even against the tightest range anyone has suggested for this player, which is JJ+,AK, QQ has 48% equity. That’s not a “flip”, it’s a huge edge. Folding here is passing up about 19K in equity or more than 6BB.

Regardless of what you may think, you do not have a future edge that is worth that much, especially considering that that’s a worst case scenario estimate. Sure, you might pick up AA and get a clear and very profitable call against a short stack, but you also might pick up KK and run it into AA. Or you might go card/spot-dead and blind down for several orbits without ever getting a playable hand. You can’t just assume that everything will go swimmingly for you and you’ll accumulate chips forever without taking any risks, even if that’s how it’s been going for the last hour.

It’s correct to be SLIGHTLY risk averse in MTTs, especially near the bubble or other spots where cEV and $EV diverge sharply. But pretty much every post I see about it on these forums drastically overestimates the effect, to the point where I think most of you would be better off just not thinking about it at all. Basically, whatever value you occasionally gain by correctly folding away small edges is getting swamped by spots like this one where you give away boat loads of equity in big pots.

If you just stopped worrying so much about busting and tried to make the right decisions, you’d be so much better off. No matter what you do, you are going to lose most tournaments you enter. Almost all of them. In most, you won’t even cash. Putting yourself in a position to win on the rare occasion that the stars align for you is just much more important than trying to minimize your risk of elimination at all times.

madpenguin12
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March 25, 2015 - 10:05 am
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Foucault said:

These aren't situations that you should be solving by feel. “I feel like I can wait for a better spot, I didn't feel like I was ahead,” etc. These things are quantifiable, and the only way to improve your intuition and decision-making at the table is to try to quantify them.

You need about 40% equity for a cEV-neutral call. Even against the tightest range anyone has suggested for this player, which is JJ+,AK, QQ has 48% equity. That's not a “flip”, it's a huge edge. Folding here is passing up about 19K in equity or more than 6BB.

Regardless of what you may think, you do not have a future edge that is worth that much, especially considering that that's a worst case scenario estimate. Sure, you might pick up AA and get a clear and very profitable call against a short stack, but you also might pick up KK and run it into AA. Or you might go card/spot-dead and blind down for several orbits without ever getting a playable hand. You can't just assume that everything will go swimmingly for you and you'll accumulate chips forever without taking any risks, even if that's how it's been going for the last hour.

It's correct to be SLIGHTLY risk averse in MTTs, especially near the bubble or other spots where cEV and $EV diverge sharply. But pretty much every post I see about it on these forums drastically overestimates the effect, to the point where I think most of you would be better off just not thinking about it at all. Basically, whatever value you occasionally gain by correctly folding away small edges is getting swamped by spots like this one where you give away boat loads of equity in big pots.

If you just stopped worrying so much about busting and tried to make the right decisions, you'd be so much better off. No matter what you do, you are going to lose most tournaments you enter. Almost all of them. In most, you won't even cash. Putting yourself in a position to win on the rare occasion that the stars align for you is just much more important than trying to minimize your risk of elimination at all times.

Thanks for this post Foucault.  It's definitely helpful especially for those just starting to play bigger live MTTs with huge prizes. I know for me, it took me a little bit to ignore the bubble money.  For those who play online, it is easier to not care about bubbles when buyin is $11-$55 or even $100 and bubble means $22-$200.   Variance is huge in these tournaments and focusing on the present and playing our best in any given situation should be the number one focus.  With a little luck (or just avoiding being unlucky), most people who continue to improve their game have a good chance to do well in an MTT.

 

As for this hand, I don't see myself folding QQ here.  I do think AA, KK, are in his range, but I think AK, AQ and even AJ are in his shove range here given your image and that's why it is beneficial to have the image you've created.  You are frustrating your opponents and pushing them to pick a spot like this one where you have the monster and most likely have them dominated.  I could see him making this move against you with 44-JJ as well.  He doens't want to play out a pot and there is enough chips in the middle for him to be happy taking it down without ever seeing a flop and thinks you are 3-betting light in your position (coupled with your image).  I think the chance at a much bigger stack can position you to make a DEEP run.  If you win this pot, you can raise more around the bubble and pick on mid stacks who are just trying to make the money and have enough chips to lose a critical flip or two.  That to me is more valuable and gives me a better chance at top 3 money.

ltcolumbo
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March 25, 2015 - 1:10 pm
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I have to withdrawl my earlier thoughts as the math never lies.  48% equity means call.

 

Foucault said:

These aren't situations that you should be solving by feel.

You need about 40% equity for a cEV-neutral call. Even against the tightest range anyone has suggested for this player, which is JJ+,AK, QQ has 48% equity. That's not a “flip”, it's a huge edge. Folding here is passing up about 19K in equity or more than 6BB.

wager9
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March 25, 2015 - 2:46 pm
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Foucault said:

 

If you just stopped worrying so much about busting and tried to make the right decisions, you'd be so much better off. No matter what you do, you are going to lose most tournaments you enter. Almost all of them. In most, you won't even cash. Putting yourself in a position to win on the rare occasion that the stars align for you is just much more important than trying to minimize your risk of elimination at all times.

Yup. Thanx for this post Andrew. This pretty much tells it like it is. The hard part for me is that I play only live tourneys (I live in MD and online poker is a no-no still). So playing what you online guys play in a weekend, takes me a year. It sucks actually. Sooooooo much time. So when a decision like this comes up it bites hard as I can't just pop a pizza in the oven and load up another MTT. But the truth is that the correct play is the correct play. I did in fact make this call in this spot, mostly due to the math and the images; so I am happy to know that the decision was the correct one.

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March 25, 2015 - 3:34 pm
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Have you tried bovada poker?  It works well for all US players.  I play on there (in Chicago) and they have a lot of good value tournaments (30k Daily Guarantee, 100k guarantee on sundays etc).  Not as many to choose from as the other large sites, but payouts are fast.  My last 2 payouts have taken less than 2 business days.  I was able to win a couple tournaments in the last month which has provided me with a pretty big bankroll boost.  I would appreciate it if you used the site below as I would get credit for a referral.

 

https://www.bovada.lv/welcome/P42E2206/join/?extcmpid=rafcopy

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