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what would you have done on turn and river? SUPER STACK
Leftymike
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August 15, 2010 - 12:10 pm
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Full Tilt Poker $5 $0.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t60/t120 Blinds – 8 players
Hand Conversion courtesy of Tournament Poker Edge

nickduke5 (SB): t10275 85.62 BBs
RagingSpirit (BB): t5890 49.08 BBs
Starvin Killer (UTG): t13249 110.41 BBs
MATONI555 (UTG+1): t5981 49.84 BBs
BHCaesar (MP1): t15752 131.27 BBs
SAN_MON TO TLV (MP2): t10136 84.47 BBs
sorrowofstars (CO): t10428 86.90 BBs
LeftyMike (BTN): t18980 158.17 BBs

Pre Flop: (t180) LeftyMike is BTN with J of spades T of spades
2 folds, BHCaesar raises to t280, 2 folds, LeftyMike calls t280, nickduke5 calls t220, 1 fold

Flop: (t960) 3 of hearts K of clubs Q of hearts (3 players)
nickduke5 checks, BHCaesar bets t480, LeftyMike calls t480, nickduke5 folds

Turn: (t1920) Q of diamonds (2 players)
BHCaesar bets t880, LeftyMike raises to t2479, BHCaesar calls t1599

River: (t6878) A of clubs (2 players)
BHCaesar checks, LeftyMike bets t3199, BHCaesar raises to t8750, LeftyMike calls t5551

Wein
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August 15, 2010 - 12:27 pm
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In general, I am very cautious with paired boards when drawing to a straight and usually just flat the turn here and evaluate what happens on the river so I'm not bloating a pot when I could easily be drawing dead.

 

As for your line, I'm not sure I have a problem with much of it except the turn.  Unless you think you can get him to laydown a strong king or two aces, your check-raise is essentially just bloating the pot when you could be drawing dead.

JDOG1645
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August 15, 2010 - 1:43 pm
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Wein said:

In general, I am very cautious with paired boards when drawing to a straight and usually just flat the turn here and evaluate what happens on the river so I'm not bloating a pot when I could easily be drawing dead.

 

As for your line, I'm not sure I have a problem with much of it except the turn.  Unless you think you can get him to laydown a strong king or two aces, your check-raise is essentially just bloating the pot when you could be drawing dead.


I agree with Wein here. I also never believe the guy who has been calling now raises on a paired board. Most people wil try and extract the value on the river. I would have called the turn bet and called the river bet because more times than not he would fire again.  I dont see any value in raising the river because your never getting called by worse.

FkCoolers
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August 16, 2010 - 12:11 pm
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We're repping such a small range here with the turn raise – 33, JQ, QTs, and KQ. But KQ isn't going to raise the Turn.

Don't mind this play if we have good reads on the villain but if we're just randomly picking this as a bluff/semi-bluff spot I'm not a fan.

FkCoolers
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August 16, 2010 - 12:14 pm
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JDOG1645 said:

Wein said:

In general, I am very cautious with paired boards when drawing to a straight and usually just flat the turn here and evaluate what happens on the river so I'm not bloating a pot when I could easily be drawing dead.

 

As for your line, I'm not sure I have a problem with much of it except the turn.  Unless you think you can get him to laydown a strong king or two aces, your check-raise is essentially just bloating the pot when you could be drawing dead.


I agree with Wein here. I also never believe the guy who has been calling now raises on a paired board. Most people wil try and extract the value on the river. I would have called the turn bet and called the river bet because more times than not he would fire again.  I dont see any value in raising the river because your never getting called by worse.


We lead the river and get raised by the villain. Can't see anything we beat except AK and JQ but doubt JQ just flats the Turn.

Shackleton
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August 16, 2010 - 12:58 pm
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Would like some stats / history on villian but seems to me that he had a FH made by turn.

Don't mind your turn raise if it's based on a read but as pointed out by JDog no real value in betting the river.

Leftymike
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August 16, 2010 - 8:12 pm
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i truly thought he had Kx, i thought my raise would have gotten him off of that, and disguised my draw if he calls and i do hit.  As played when he checks the river, should i be betting here after he calls the turn.  I genuinely felt once he checked the river i had the best hand.  He had AQ.

JDOG1645
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August 17, 2010 - 2:59 am
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FkCoolers said:

JDOG1645 said:

Wein said:

In general, I am very cautious with paired boards when drawing to a straight and usually just flat the turn here and evaluate what happens on the river so I'm not bloating a pot when I could easily be drawing dead.

 

As for your line, I'm not sure I have a problem with much of it except the turn.  Unless you think you can get him to laydown a strong king or two aces, your check-raise is essentially just bloating the pot when you could be drawing dead.


I agree with Wein here. I also never believe the guy who has been calling now raises on a paired board. Most people wil try and extract the value on the river. I would have called the turn bet and called the river bet because more times than not he would fire again.  I dont see any value in raising the river because your never getting called by worse.


We lead the river and get raised by the villain. Can't see anything we beat except AK and JQ but doubt JQ just flats the Turn.


Yeah what I meant was we should just check behind we wont get called by worse and it sucks when we bet and get raised as happened in the hand.

FkCoolers
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August 17, 2010 - 2:48 pm
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Leftymike said:

i truly thought he had Kx, i thought my raise would have gotten him off of that, and disguised my draw if he calls and i do hit.  As played when he checks the river, should i be betting here after he calls the turn.  I genuinely felt once he checked the river i had the best hand.  He had AQ.


KJ should be the only Kx hand in his range that loses to you on this river. No one should be raising worse kings from his position so that gives pause for thought.

I'm more worried that he has KQ on the turn and is baiting the hook.

I know it feels weak to check back when we finally hit our hand but honestly I think these are the only hands that call us which we beat:

QJ, AK.

He maybe could have donked twice with a heart draw or the same hand as us …

But I think those hands push or fold the turn so I'm ruling them out.

Having stats on him is a definite plus here. Against a total fish I bet. Against an unknown or someone I know to be competent I probably check back the river.

Leftymike
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August 17, 2010 - 3:46 pm
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Thank you all for the input.  I just have one final question, how often do you feel random players check in spots like these hoping to get a bet so they can raise… i hate, i never believe the raise.. my thought process instantly goes to, ” well, why would he check.”  I didnt think he would check a boat and if he didnt have a boat i had him beat, i figured he would of called my bet which was prolly around 45% of the pot.

FkCoolers
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August 17, 2010 - 4:27 pm
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Yeah. It's so hard to check back against a random. You have to really know the person is a good, tricky player to be very concerned here. And you don't see many of those in a $5 MTT.

Once he jams all-in I can't think of a single hand I beat. He could have had AA, been unable to find the fold button along the way, and then got there at the end.

Or like I said before KQ seems so likely here when he flats the Turn to not scare anyone off. I feel like JQ jams. KK is a possibility, too.

I guess what it comes down to is how many times you actually get called and win the hand.

All flush draws fold. King-crap probably folds if that's what you put him on. Ace crap should never show up.

That leaves JT and hands that beat you.

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