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What to do with the nut flush on turn?
smallcat66
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July 17, 2014 - 4:48 am
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I am in the final of a local weekly tourney. 16 players qualified through a league points system. There are two tables of 8 players with a prize pool of 1,000 Euro. Most of the players are competent and know each others playing styles.

The two villians in this hand are solid tight agressive

Blinds are 300/600

Utg (60,000) raises to 1500

folds to SB (42,000) who calls

Hero (65,000) calls with Ac Ks

Flop – 7s As 4s

Sb cheks

Hero checks

Utg bets 3000

We both call

Turn- 9s

Sb checks

Hero?

Foucault

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July 17, 2014 - 9:53 am
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You should generally be reraising preflop, but as played I’d bet now. It’s basically impossible for UTG to bet into two people on this turn, so it’s going to check through really often.

smallcat66
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July 17, 2014 - 10:51 am
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Thanks for the reply.

I did not 3bet for the following reasons. I read these reasons in Harringtons new booksmile. 1- Stacks are deep. 2- The pot was raised from early position so his range is likely to be narrow so it will be difficult to get him to fold to a 3 bet. 3- The opener is a strong but not especially loose. 4- My image is tight so if i 3 bet my opponents can put me on a strong hand. ( i am taking steps to change my image).

Yes I agree that I should bet here. What size of a bet should I make?

Foucault

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July 17, 2014 - 2:09 pm
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I don't think this is a hugely profitable 3-bet, but I do think it's a good one. I'd be less inclined to 3-bet if you were heads up with the original raiser, but forcing the SB out of the pot or getting him to put more money in from behind are both good outcomes. More importantly, I think that your (2) and (4) points contradict each other. You say it's hard to make him fold but also that your 3-bet will look too strong. You would 3-bet AA and KK here, right? Are they the only hands you would 3-bet? If so, you are making it pretty easy for your opponent to play hands like TT or JJ correctly either by folding immediately or by set-mining. Putting AK into your 3-betting range, basically as a bluff or semi-bluff, will help to counteract or capitalize on that overly tight image.

Regarding the size of the bet, have you seen my value betting series? That should help you to think through the problem.

smallcat66
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July 17, 2014 - 3:51 pm
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Yes it will be hard to get him to fold and yes my 3 bet looks strong. If an ace comes on the flop, my opponent can put me on the ace and play accordingly. If he calls my flop bet on a non drawey board, well then he could have me beat. I have other 3 bet hands but not many against an utg opener. I have recentley got into a few sticky situations by 3 betting AK, getting my C bet called when I missed and not really knowing what to do when i also whiff the flop. So for now in my local game, i just flat call with AK. I will hopefully change this strategy in the future.

I have looked a lot of your videos but not the value betting series.Will watch them now.

I guess I should bet pretty big here

Foucault

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July 18, 2014 - 12:21 pm
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Right now, when you 3-bet, your opponent can correctly put on you on AA – QQ and play accordingly. That is a much tougher situation to be in and more likely to result in tough spots for you. You are focusing on specific situations that can get tough to play with one exact hand. You need to think in terms of playing a RANGE in a given situation, not just one hand. Yes, it's hard to win with AK if your c-bet is called when you whiff the flop. However, those same boards are great for QQ – AA. Likewise, when an A flops, that's a bad flop for your QQ and KK and a good one for your AK/AA. When your opponent doesn't know which of these hands he has, it's much harder for him to bluff you and also to make big folds to you. When he knows (or correctly guesses) that you always have QQ – AA, he can get away from JJ on a Txx flop and can bluff you when an Ace flops.

smallcat66
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July 18, 2014 - 6:23 pm
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I will expand my 3 betting range and see how i get on.

In the hand above, I check the turn as does the Utg player.

There is 13,500 in the pot.

 

River is 4h.

Sb bets 6,000

I call

Utg Raises to20,000

Sb folds

I call and lose to 77

MovesLikeDarvin

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July 19, 2014 - 5:38 pm
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i would like to bet the turn. against stationy players i would make a bet of like 2/3 on the turn, against aggressive ones i might lead small, then lead small on safe rivers to perhaps induce bluff raises. have had quite a bit of success playing 4-flush boards like this out of position against aggro villains. again, against stations i would just 2/3, 2/3 or 2/3, pot.

smallcat66
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July 20, 2014 - 1:50 pm
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I agree with you Moves that i should 2/3 pot bet turn. Very interesting point about betting small on turn and safe rivers against aggro villians. I would love to try that line in the future.

MovesLikeDarvin

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July 26, 2014 - 4:57 pm
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i have been having very good success with it against euro villains online, and some live villains who fit the “euro” profile.

 

Ex: A9cc in the sb, multi way limped pot at $10/20.

Flop QT4ccc, i do not lead, it checks around

Turn 8c: i lead $50, hyper-aggro fish calls

River 3c: i opt to lead $50, he raises to $200, i click to $400, he bombs all in.

 

I think these small pseudo-blocker bets leave villains in a “raise or fold” situation, and often will want to raise rather than fold to such a small bet. give it a shot in the future if you're unsure in a similar spot OOP vs aggro villain where you're nutted.

MovesLikeDarvin

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July 26, 2014 - 5:19 pm
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Talked this hand over exhaustively with thedylan186 and we came up with some interesting points:

Regarding turn play:

We both liked betting when checked to 2nd to act because checking will more than likely limit you to one more street of value with the nuts, as we anticipate UTG will check back a wide range IP for pot control after being called by both players on the flop. By checking, even if UTG bets for us, we can become victims of his bet sizing—if he chooses to bet small, we're in favor of check/raising small, betting river small (1/4-1/3). We don't expect to get called often on the river by this line, either.  By betting, we allow ourselves a better opportunity to get value on the turn as well as on the river. The weaker the players in the pot, the more we're inclined to bet bigger (2/3 to 3/4+ pot) on both streets. 

 

Regarding river play, as played:

From a pot odds perspective, you have to be willing to believe that Villain bluff-raises the river about 40% of the time, as you are risking 14k to win 31.5k, getting almost exactly 2.25:1.  Given his sizing, and the fact that Villain raised over a SB lead + your call from the BB, this appears a tough sell.  This is a perfectly plausible line for a flopped set to take on this run out, so unless you have the villain pegged as a much stronger player, we'd suggest this is a losing call here.

Foucault

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July 27, 2014 - 10:34 pm
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MovesLikeDarvin said:

i have been having very good success with it against euro villains online, and some live villains who fit the “euro” profile.

 

Ex: A9cc in the sb, multi way limped pot at $10/20.

Flop QT4ccc, i do not lead, it checks around

Turn 8c: i lead $50, hyper-aggro fish calls

River 3c: i opt to lead $50, he raises to $200, i click to $400, he bombs all in.

 

I think these small pseudo-blocker bets leave villains in a “raise or fold” situation, and often will want to raise rather than fold to such a small bet. give it a shot in the future if you're unsure in a similar spot OOP vs aggro villain where you're nutted.

Someone owned me with a line like this at the main event last year 🙁

jacobsharktank
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September 4, 2014 - 5:09 pm
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MovesLikeDarvin said:

From a pot odds perspective, you have to be willing to believe that Villain bluff-raises the river about 40% of the time, as you are risking 14k to win 31.5k, getting almost exactly 2.25:1.  Given his sizing, and the fact that Villain raised over a SB lead + your call from the BB, this appears a tough sell.  This is a perfectly plausible line for a flopped set to take on this run out, so unless you have the villain pegged as a much stronger player, we'd suggest this is a losing call here.

On the river, the pot is 13,500.

SB bets 6000. Hero calls 6000. Villain raises to 20000.

 

So the pot is 45,500 and we need to call 14000, getting 3.25:1 needing villain to bluff like 23.5% of the time?

I'm actually a little confused here, myself. If we don't include our 6000, we're seeing 39500 and need to call 16000, getting 2.82:1 and needing villain to bluff like 26.2% of the time?

Foucault

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September 5, 2014 - 10:14 am
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jacobsharktank said:

MovesLikeDarvin said:

From a pot odds perspective, you have to be willing to believe that Villain bluff-raises the river about 40% of the time, as you are risking 14k to win 31.5k, getting almost exactly 2.25:1.  Given his sizing, and the fact that Villain raised over a SB lead + your call from the BB, this appears a tough sell.  This is a perfectly plausible line for a flopped set to take on this run out, so unless you have the villain pegged as a much stronger player, we'd suggest this is a losing call here.

On the river, the pot is 13,500.

SB bets 6000. Hero calls 6000. Villain raises to 20000.

 

So the pot is 45,500 and we need to call 14000, getting 3.25:1 needing villain to bluff like 23.5% of the time?

I'm actually a little confused here, myself. If we don't include our 6000, we're seeing 39500 and need to call 16000, getting 2.82:1 and needing villain to bluff like 26.2% of the time?

3.25:1 is correct here, Jacob, good catch.

MovesLikeDarvin

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September 8, 2014 - 10:11 am
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Foucault said:

MovesLikeDarvin said:

i have been having very good success with it against euro villains online, and some live villains who fit the “euro” profile.

 

Ex: A9cc in the sb, multi way limped pot at $10/20.

Flop QT4ccc, i do not lead, it checks around

Turn 8c: i lead $50, hyper-aggro fish calls

River 3c: i opt to lead $50, he raises to $200, i click to $400, he bombs all in.

 

I think these small pseudo-blocker bets leave villains in a “raise or fold” situation, and often will want to raise rather than fold to such a small bet. give it a shot in the future if you're unsure in a similar spot OOP vs aggro villain where you're nutted.

Someone owned me with a line like this at the main event last year 🙁

one of my faves, and the silver lining of this post is that it must work against sickos a fair bit 🙂

MovesLikeDarvin

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September 8, 2014 - 10:13 am
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jacobsharktank said:

MovesLikeDarvin said:

From a pot odds perspective, you have to be willing to believe that Villain bluff-raises the river about 40% of the time, as you are risking 14k to win 31.5k, getting almost exactly 2.25:1.  Given his sizing, and the fact that Villain raised over a SB lead + your call from the BB, this appears a tough sell.  This is a perfectly plausible line for a flopped set to take on this run out, so unless you have the villain pegged as a much stronger player, we'd suggest this is a losing call here.

On the river, the pot is 13,500.

SB bets 6000. Hero calls 6000. Villain raises to 20000.

 

So the pot is 45,500 and we need to call 14000, getting 3.25:1 needing villain to bluff like 23.5% of the time?

I'm actually a little confused here, myself. If we don't include our 6000, we're seeing 39500 and need to call 16000, getting 2.82:1 and needing villain to bluff like 26.2% of the time?

Jacob, 

your math seems right (ill bow to foucault's will on the maths). regardless, i dont think the difference should change our viewpoints on the river bet/call. if he needs to be bluffing 1/4 of the time, i would suggest that most live players in the fields we're talking about here don't do it >25% of the time either. 40%—definitely not. 25%? Still probably not.

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