So I grinded my first session of 4.40 180's today and have a question regarding “standard” strategy for lower limit MTT's.
After weeks of studying the books and the great vids on this site, I really tried to concentrate on things like stack and bet sizes, trying to apply what I've been busy learning. What I struggled with, and I'm sure I will continue to do so in the lower MTT's is how to apply them. When I am considering what to do, I look at my stack size, my opponents stack size…think about what I'm trying to accomplish (ie. have a plan), but in these limits….I'm finding it hard to apply things like “with 20 bb the opponent should not be folding so we shouldn't 3 bet light” or “when we have 20-25 bb we should be looking to reship not open light…etc.”
Now, I know we need to adjust to the oponnent level….but then I find myself pretty much handcuffed to a super nitty TAG style in these things. So I guess my question is, besides making some adjustments to the playing level, should we stick to what we know to be the correct play….ie. if we know we shouldn't be opening with 15-20 bb if we can't call a 3 bet, can we do so anyway in lower limits because our opponent may not know any better, or is this just mathematically a wrong play period….or if a Villain is opening with less than 20 bb but we feel they don't know they can't fold can we 3 bet them? I guess the biggest challenge is all the opponents are pretty much unknowns, so what I've been doing is just stick to what I've learned…..and assume they know what I know (thus making me a nit).
I hope I'm making some sense here….if not I apologize….and I'm also feeling like I'm answering my own question as I was typing it out….but I'm going to post anyway just to get the discussion going….and yes, I do sense this being a bit of a stupid question, but oh well….
pedactor said:
Now, I know we need to adjust to the oponnent level….but then I find myself pretty much handcuffed to a super nitty TAG style in these things. So I guess my question is, besides making some adjustments to the playing level, should we stick to what we know to be the correct play….ie. if we know we shouldn't be opening with 15-20 bb if we can't call a 3 bet, can we do so anyway in lower limits because our opponent may not know any better, or is this just mathematically a wrong play period….or if a Villain is opening with less than 20 bb but we feel they don't know they can't fold can we 3 bet them? I guess the biggest challenge is all the opponents are pretty much unknowns, so what I've been doing is just stick to what I've learned…..and assume they know what I know (thus making me a nit).
If you are talking about 4.40s specifically and micro Mtt <5$, you should tighten your 15-20bb opening range to VALUE hands instead of steal hands not so much because players are going to 3b and you don't want to fold, but because the micro donk is going to CALL you a lot more. When they do, once you fire a cbet you are often either committed or really close to it which makes it tough if you didn't actually hit. Same goes for 3betting light vs a <20bb opener. It's not that they don't know they can't/shouldn't fold, they just don't do it often enough. There isn't a big enough gap most of the time between the hands they open with and the hands that they are calling your shove with. On the bright side, just you being aware of things like stack sizes and inflection points means that these players DON'T know what you know. Nitting it up in 4.40s isn't a bad thing. There are plenty of 4.40 guys that are much better than me, but I bet that if you rarely, if ever, resteal as a bluff in a 4.40, it is only a small mistake.
i've said this a million times before, and i'm happy to say it again:
at the smaller stakes, your edge is largely going to come from having solid fundamentals, and in general making far fewer mistakes than your opponents. you're going to be more patient and not open in dicey spots with bad stack sizes and get yourself in dumb situatuations as a result. you're not going to speculate with hands like 33 or 78s OOP to a raise with 20BB. etc.
i wouldn't worry too much about your playing style or your 3bet % and instead just focus on playing each hand the best you can.
while you play, keep some sort of text document open in which to paste hands that you struggle with, or just spots that you find interesting. then when you're not playing, send these hands to other players or post them in forums like this to see how other people would play them.
go over your deep runs in a replayer so you can make sure you're not missing out on good spots or being too spewy.
constantly play with pokerstove to build for yourself an understanding of what equity different hands have against different ranges.
or you could hire me as a coach 😉
hope this helped.
Hagbard Celine said:
i've said this a million times before, and i'm happy to say it again:
at the smaller stakes, your edge is largely going to come from having solid fundamentals, and in general making far fewer mistakes than your opponents. you're going to be more patient and not open in dicey spots with bad stack sizes and get yourself in dumb situatuations as a result. you're not going to speculate with hands like 33 or 78s OOP to a raise with 20BB. etc.
i wouldn't worry too much about your playing style or your 3bet % and instead just focus on playing each hand the best you can.
while you play, keep some sort of text document open in which to paste hands that you struggle with, or just spots that you find interesting. then when you're not playing, send these hands to other players or post them in forums like this to see how other people would play them.
go over your deep runs in a replayer so you can make sure you're not missing out on good spots or being too spewy.
constantly play with pokerstove to build for yourself an understanding of what equity different hands have against different ranges.
or you could hire me as a coach 😉
hope this helped.
Cool. Appreciate the advice and perspective. Sometimes I feel like just depositing 5K and play higher (I play lower due to skill, not so much money) ….but I know if I can't crush the micro and low end levels, probably asking to take it up the wazzoo in anything higher. Plus, probably not as satisfying as building up a bankroll from scratch.
I really like the idea of keeping a text file open….never thought of that. Beats going through miles of hand history to find the one hand you wanted to get opinions on. Going to keep posting and replying in forums for now….unfortunately don't have any “poker buddies” as most of my friends don't have an interest or think poker is pure luck (we all know online is rigged right? :-P)
As for coaching….I've really thought about it….but not sure. I was about to go into coaching relationship before (little over a year ago) where I was going to stake myself the 5-10 K and split the winnings….but I backed out….figured I could do it on my own…lol….didn't quite work out. Maybe I can find someone to do it for a bucket of KFC?
def +1 to shoving more with your value hands…….I'm a little more hesitant to open with my suited connecter type hands and stuff because people are calling so atrociously bad…..but I am more than happy to shove over their opens with my suited face card type hands in these though.
how many times haev you seen a 20bbish stack open in these with 10Jo then call someones shove……they want to open their “pretty hands” and then they don't know how to fold them. so shove more for value than just for pure stealing in these I think
yeah you're much better off learning at the smaller stakes before jumping into the high stakes. and you're right that you'll get a ton of satisfaction from building a roll and working your way up.
that being said, if you have a good job and are able to replenish your roll, then you could definitely add some money to your current roll and start mixing in some midstakes tourneys. like the ~25s and some of the smaller-field 55s on stars wouldn't be a bad idea, especially if you keep your eye on your avg buyin and make sure it stays at a reasonable level.
as for poker friends, i'm pretty sure there is an AIM list somewhere here, and a TPE study group. also join sites like 2+2 and pocketfives where you can meet other players. there are tons of opportunities to meet other people just like you playing the same games as you.
and the coaching thing was more tongue-in-cheek. it can be a great help, but you're probably better off getting in some solid volume before you think about coaching.
gl!
July 3, 2010
Hagbard has good advice. If you have the income to do so you should get away from the large field donkaments on Stars and Tilt – I'm talking the $5 and $10 fields with 1500+ runners every time and move up to $15, $20, and $30 mtt's with smaller fields while using things like the $4.40 180 man and $3 90 man KO to reduce your variance.
If you're a competent cash game player this can also be a great way to recoup mtt buy-ins to offset those streaks where you fail to cash.
I often play 50 nl and 100 nl and grind out modest profit there while getting rakeback to stay afloat.
But as for the $4.40's, tight is right. It may seem boring but it's optimal.
pedactor said:
I really like the idea of keeping a text file open….never thought of that. Beats going through miles of hand history to find the one hand you wanted to get opinions on. Going to keep posting and replying in forums for now….unfortunately don't have any “poker buddies” as most of my friends don't have an interest or think poker is pure luck (we all know online is rigged right? :-P)
That's what TPE Chat is for! Every night we have a bunch of people in there sweating/talking hands/hanging out. Check it out.
That's what TPE Chat is for! Every night we have a bunch of people in there sweating/talking hands/hanging out. Check it out.
Have been popping in and out….will try to get in more often. Damn my job….keeps me from playing poker…lol.
Thanks for the advice to all. I think I am going to move up a bit in stakes….nothing crazy. Still grind out the small tournies like the 4.40's etc, but through in a few higher ones. I used to like the $24+2 tournies on Full Tilt….do these still have value? Only thing with FT is getting money on to that site licks the big one. Maybe I'll do a site transer with someone from Stars if FT is still good for those tournies.
Thanks again everyone.
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