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(1 votes) 
October 8, 2013
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I was playing in a $180 buy in $100k Guaranteed event at the Borgata the other day when this hand came up. Was wondering if this was the correct decision or not.
Stack is at 50K, blinds are 500-1,000
Guy in middle position ships all in pre for 9,000
I'm sitting with 22 in the HJ, button and sb have roughly 40k each and bb has 70k
I decided to fold here because I was unsure of what the players behind me would do. was this the correct decision? what would be a good calling/shoving range for a situation like this? I haven't played many tournaments since BF and could use some advice
Thanks
I think so. Very best case your in a race situation against overs, worst overpair plus you have to worry about getting raised out of pot completely by blinds.
August 31, 2013
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yep +1 with Mateo. You are flipping at best and there are still two players left behind. Just fold and wait a better spot.
June 8, 2012
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i think people make a alot of mistakes in these spots. while it looks like, “ur always flipping at best, wait for a better spot” cuz 22 is whatever lets just fold cuz its the ez play….we shouldnt think that way. first, we have 50bb so we arent in stack preservation mode, if we had 25bb or whatever then i can see passing up marginal spots. second, are there stations behind? where they will call 9k just because. are there laggy doods who will iso ur flat with like KJs cuz your call might seem weak and thinks the initial shover is shoving like 50% of hands? third, whats your image? if you been tight, your flat gets more credit and the less of a chance the players behind will iso.
now, the hand itself in a vacuum……we need 39% equity to breakeven. if hes shoving 40% which is loose but certainly reasonable, 22 has 46% equity. if hes shoving 30%, 22 has 45% equity. if hes shoving 20%, 22 has 43% equity. its not until we gave him a super tight range of 10% that 22 has a 39% breakeven equity. so based on math alone, it certainly looks like an ev call. and the fact we have 50bb and a 9bb loss doesnt break us down into a stack size that disables us from making certain plays….i think calling is certainly ok.
obviously its not just a math thing so we need to consider image, gameflow, etc etc….which OP didnt tell us anything about.
June 8, 2012
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oh. and its looks like a huge field event so im less likely to pass up +ev spots in these. we need to grab hold of every reasonable ev we can get. for me, I think if I was in SB or BB its an ez call. HJ/CO is more of a gameflow thing.
January 28, 2013
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Im definitely folding 22 here. The range for this spot really depends on the range of the original shover and what reads you have on the people behind. Are they aggro? Is the big stack a passive fish and gonna flat wide then ck/fold flops or stack off with weak TP/gutshots etc? Are they tight behind? It also matters on the table dynamic thus far and how soft the table is.
I think most of your range here should be a flat. Flatting the top of our range will most likely get an aggressive person behind to try 3b iso and we can snap in with premiums, or flat and shove most flops. With our middle range and tight guys behind I'd click it back and fold to the 40bb shoves. If there is a passive station in the blinds with the big stack I think flatting premiums and getting him to spaz out with weak TP's, combo draws is probably the best.
Will be the first to admit I don't understand EV yet, new here and haven't really developed past outs and pot odds yet but it is on my short list.
Still I will stick to my fold call. Bottom line for me is the guy is short stacked and obviously shoving with a lot. I can't see the button and blinds not getting involved if hero just calls. Any pair against the guy who shoves is probably way ahead but I can't see this being heads up with just a call from the HJ.
I see the point that we are not short stacked by any means but its still like 20% of our stack to call and basically hope to set mine at best if there is no reraise.
October 8, 2013
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thanks for the responses guys. and thanks for breaking down the EV math for the hand shutEMdown. I'm not good with the EV stuff but i based my decision on the 'at best im flipping' factor. I would've called the all-in if i was in the BB for sure since i'd imagine the guy is shoving with almost anything decent with 9 BBs. I was pretty new to the table (2 orbits) so thats why I didn't include that info, i should've been more clear about that.
it turned out to be the right fold in terms of results because the BB woke up with Kings but I know thats not always going to happen that way. one of my biggest flaws in my game is these marginal spots so i appreciate the help!
May 30, 2012
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Being a Borgata & LIVE mtt reg, this is a fold all day. even if you had a slightly bigger pair it's a fold to me. Too many things can happen behind you w/ the players still to act. it's the worst pair of cards in the deck. FOLD.
June 11, 2012
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i actually made up a little table based on the info you gave:
stacks are: 35,35,45,9,50,30,40,40,70 with 1BB and no ante
so this means nash optimal he should shove 19.2% 19.2%, 22+ A2s+ ATo+ K9s+ KJo+ Q9s+ QJo J9s+ T9s 98s which would say we should jam here with 5.7%, 88+ AJs+ AQo+ . obv i am not jaming the top of my range here in a 180$ 
this brings me to the point where i would say that his range is way tighter. probably something like this:
10.6%, 77+ ATs+ AJo+ KTs+ KJo+ QJs i now that looks ridic but its a live 180$
so with that range our calling range is:
4.5%, TT+ AQs+ AQo+
and shutEMdown you cant just calculate the equity and odds of a call here you also need to factor in how often they wake up with a hand behind you
and TonyFlow27 what did the all in player have? if you note inforamtion like this incl stack down you can easily work on calling and shoving charts in the long run 😀
cheers
August 31, 2013
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shutEMdown said:
i think people make a alot of mistakes in these spots. while it looks like, “ur always flipping at best, wait for a better spot” cuz 22 is whatever lets just fold cuz its the ez play….we shouldnt think that way. first, we have 50bb so we arent in stack preservation mode, if we had 25bb or whatever then i can see passing up marginal spots. second, are there stations behind? where they will call 9k just because. are there laggy doods who will iso ur flat with like KJs cuz your call might seem weak and thinks the initial shover is shoving like 50% of hands? third, whats your image? if you been tight, your flat gets more credit and the less of a chance the players behind will iso.
now, the hand itself in a vacuum……we need 39% equity to breakeven. if hes shoving 40% which is loose but certainly reasonable, 22 has 46% equity. if hes shoving 30%, 22 has 45% equity. if hes shoving 20%, 22 has 43% equity. its not until we gave him a super tight range of 10% that 22 has a 39% breakeven equity. so based on math alone, it certainly looks like an ev call. and the fact we have 50bb and a 9bb loss doesnt break us down into a stack size that disables us from making certain plays….i think calling is certainly ok.
obviously its not just a math thing so we need to consider image, gameflow, etc etc….which OP didnt tell us anything about.
The problem is that you can do what ever you want, (call, click back, shove, etc) you will never extract of lot of EV in this spot. At best it will be marginally +EV, if you are wrong about the shover range it will become EV-, if blinds are agressive and can iso pretty wide here it will become EV-…
Just don't see the interest of play a flip for 9BB here with two players still to act that can overcall and put you in a bad spot or just reshove. In BB yes I might consider calling if the shover is aggro. The only case I would call here is if the field is really good, in that case yes, I would take all marginal EV+ spot, even marginal EV- spot. But here I'm always passing that spot espcially if th efield is weak ans I think I have an edge!
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