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July 30, 2012
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Second Level 100/200 25 ante (this tourney has a very interesting structure with antes coming on the 2nd level – 60 minutes blinds – 25k starting stack)
UTG (28k) – tight player
CO (20k) – LAG sometimes taking weird lines
HJ (not sure think he had about 25-30k) – LAG
BTN (25-30k) – very aggro
Hero (BB) 23.5k
Hero is dealt 8
8
UTG limps for 200, CO/HJ/BTN limps behind which already makes for a very strange start. I make it 1200 out of the BB. So the first question is regarding bet sizing here, too small? Or even, would you guys have raised here or just checked to set mine? 1 1/2 year ago I would pound the limpers a lot more in these spots live, but as the spots became too obvious it started not being profitable with weaker holdings as people would call much lighter for bigger multiway pots OOP. Guess I was trying to see if this would work again and in doing so I made a mistake.
UTG calls right away, CO calls, HJ folds, BTN calls
Flop comes 10
8
7 for middle set and I fire right away 2400, UTG calls, CO raises to 6200, BTN folds, Hero?
CO is loose and I have seen him be aggressive with draws before, but given the strong line taken and people behind him I'm not sure if he would be here with weaker draws/hands. Maybe a combo draw, maybe a lower set, J9 for a straight is possible, maybe an AXc for the nut flush draw. What do you guys think is the villains range here?
I'd be basically commiting myself here if I flatted, but just barely. Could I call the flop and fold the turn? Such an awkward spot. There are so many hand we're beating here, but not sure how much of those are gone after he 3bets/commits himself here. Of course some hands beat us such as TT, J9, 96 and we'd be 'flipping' with some big combo draws such as 98c, and ahead of others such as JQc. But then again some of this hands should be out of his range after my raise pre.
As for the UTG, he was stationing quite a bit that far, calling with any sort of hand and folding after it was clear that he was beat. Very weird line he took, but I felt he could have 22-99s (to set mine), KK-AAs (he did slowplay monsters before althoug it would be obviously quite bad), AXc for a big flush draw.
I have been thinking a lot about this hand given the fact that 1) he clearly has a hand (def not air and not levelling), 2) a lot of the hands don't make sense in calling a big raise pre.
Any comments will be appreciated.
Thanks!
Ps. Should mention it was a multiday re-entry tourney and it was Day 1B, but I couldn't play in Day 1C.
July 30, 2012
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And thinking more about it, TT was kind of a long shot because even with the strange UTG limp, I feel he would have raised it pre.
March 8, 2013
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I definitely prefer checking pre here. 88 is not a great hand to play multiway out of position, and that's pretty much guaranteed with 4 limpers. If you do want to raise, I'm probably bomb like 2000 to make sure to not get multiple callers, but checking seems superior.
On the flop, I really don't think you can ever fold. There's 5000 in the middle preflop, plus 7200 from your first bet, and you have like 20000 back, so you need about 38% to be happy getting it in. Given that you are 34% against J9, and TT is very unlikely, he only needs to do this with very few nonstraights for you to be happy. You're not “flipping with JQc, you are 66%! And 55% against 89c, which i guess you could call flipping, but you're still ahead.
You made your hand, get it in!
July 30, 2012
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Thanks Mark!
My bad, I added JQc later and forget to correct it, obviously we'd be way ahead of a GS/FD.
Agree completely that I made a mistake pre. I'd normally check it back every single time, and made a mistake there. Also I felt right away that my bet sizing was bad, specially given UTG was a station and chances were great he'd call even larger raises which in turn would give odds to the players behind him.
Making it 2k would help with the other players as they were LAGs and their range was much wider.
March 13, 2013
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markconkle said:
I definitely prefer checking pre here. 88 is not a great hand to play multiway out of position, and that's pretty much guaranteed with 4 limpers. If you do want to raise, I'm probably bomb like 2000 to make sure to not get multiple callers, but checking seems superior.
I agree with this preflop thinking. If you are going to raise, it needs to be more, otherwise you wind up with cascading callers -> bloated pot -> OOP -> mediocre holding -> 🙁
That said, the flop spot is gross whether or not you raise preflop, so your flop predicament can't be fixed by preflop action. It does make the stacks deeper, so you can bet-call, and see what develops.
As played, its really tough for the raiser not to have a strong holding on the flop. Hes raising a multiway pot, after a bet and a caller. It might be a little too passive to just call on the flop and wait for a safe turn card to get it in, plus the turn can bring lots of cards that make your life tough (flushes, straights, and you are OOP). In the heat of the moment, I probably just call, but I don't know if jamming is better.
July 30, 2012
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MotherFuggle,
Thanks. Agreed that I misplayed the hand pre, but as you very well said it wouldn't dramatically change the awkward spot on the flop.
My first thought (intuition) was to fold but after tanking for 2 minutes I couldn't see myself not jamming. Probably the cbet, the UTG snap calling, and another player behind him would take some weaker draws out of his range. Still, it would be a good spot for the villain to 3bet hand such as AJc (nut FD plus GS) right?
I mean thinking for a second what he thought I had. My raise pre, given the spot could be done with almost ATC; but cbetting into 3 players on the flop did narrow my range a bit, right? Air would be fairly unlikely, overpairs a possibility, strong flush draws, sets other than top set would be less likely IMO as 88 and 77 would usually just check behind pre, 2 pair, SD and combo draws, and possibly flopped straights (like J9).
Obviously he'd have fold equity in some cases, but given the range above I do think he'd 3bet with a strong combo draw at minimum. We could take out weak FD draws (for example) out of his range, right?
May 31, 2012
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Im not sure. But i think i would have checked preflop.
On this flop there are alot of hands that he can have that you have beat. 108, 109, 107, Axs, 89s.
And vs the hands you are afraid of (J9 and 69) you are not even drawing dead.
I would shove or raise (not sure whats best) here for sure.
I mean, you can so easly have a 1-pair hand here. Like AA,KK,QQ and i think thats why he can put alot of pressure with combodraw and 2pair-hands.
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