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WCOOP-03 215$: playing multiway pot oop against good reg
BBaton
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September 10, 2014 - 9:24 pm
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Hello!

I got another hand to rewiev.

Setup: We are away from money bubble. Basically im new to the table and recognize Btn, a high stakes mtt huge regular. So as mtt novice I dont want to 3b my hand and play it oop against him. So I opt to flat it preflop and proceed with caution on later streets.

Flop is good for me and after several checks he bets into 4 players. So basically I have to assign his preflop calling range that he will bet into multiple players on this flop texture. Most probably he got: 88, KhJh,JhTh, Ac8c, Ad8d. Other hands he would most probably release preflop or 3b to reduce field.

At turn his JTs is now nut straight and Im concerned that he will check back his A8s. So, I am basically in pretty bad shape against his assign hand range so I decided to fold to protect my healthy stack.

The question is: Am I right with my assumptions? Is it correct to flat AQo there preflop to play 5handed? What line would be optimal ?

…..ndNo=30982

Looking for your response

Regards

EllDan
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September 10, 2014 - 10:14 pm
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What is your image? If you have non aggro image then I am 3-betting pre to about $2000.

As played, I check raise the flop and put villain allin.

BBaton
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September 10, 2014 - 10:29 pm
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As I mentioned I am new to the table so I did not establish any table image so far.

 

I do not like check raise for two reasons. First of all I got almost all players left to act and secondly as I point out earlier Btn is a very good player so most probably he ll release all hands that I have beat, leaving me with 4 outer or racing my 2 pairs against combo draws. Why not calling and reevaluate when we got him assign to few hands ?

 

Thank for reply ! smile

OneTime1Time
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September 11, 2014 - 12:22 am
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I don't think you are correct in all of your assumptions. He is going to have a MUCH larger range than that, and he is likely betting his entire range when it's checked to him on the BTN. It's an “adopt a pot” at that point, because the OR has basically said “I have pocket 9's and missed”. It's possible everyone else has missed this as well, given how hard you hit it. 

The first thing I'd address though, is your game plan for the hand.

 

“Basically im new to the table and recognize Btn, a high stakes mtt huge regular. So as mtt novice I dont want to 3b my hand and play it oop against him” This, right here, is not good. You can't base your decisions to 3b or not just because a good MTT player is involved in the hand. Doing this has set you on the mentality to player weaker vs this specific player, and that mentality causes you to fold vs him on later streets in a spot where it isn't right to fold. It even has you trying to justify the fold now that you are asking for help, without trying to justify a call. Essentially, you allowed yourself to level yourself out of the pot. I know exactly what this is like, because I had the exact same problem a few years ago. It was by far the biggest leak I've ever plugged. I know that may sound harsh, and I'm sorry if it is, but it's really the biggest problem with this hand. Right from the start you had yourself playing passively.

 

Now, onto the actual hand; I'm 3 betting here, pretty much always. It's early, we are deep and playing AQo 5 handed OOP is not going to be a fun time at all. Better to 3b and thin the field while adding some dead money to the middle. I can't say I will always be 3bing, but it will be the primary action here. Sometimes I will choose to slow play it so that I can take a more aggro line post flop. 

As played, I am check raising the flop 100% of the time. There is no question about this, ever. We have pretty much flopped the nuts here. Villain never has AA. Never has QQ. Can have 88, lots of flush draws, weak Aces, Queens, and pretty much everything else under the sun because there was so much weak action pre and it's been checked to him. He is very likely to bet with everything purely in an attempt to steal the pot. When we X/R here, we don't have to put him all in, but when we do X/R we aren't folding to his shove. A lot of times I am X/R to 3200 to induce his shove. If we X/R and someone behind us reshoves, then we can evaluate. That becomes totally player dependant, but usually is more weighted to the top end of their ranges.

Given that we flat the flop bet, 100% check shoving turn card. The K only gives him a few more hands that are beating us (JT and a very weakly played AK). He is still betting with a lot of his original range, as you have a lot of heart draws in yours. Even given his sizing on turn bet, if he's bluffing and you pick it off, he still has 25BB, which is nothing to worry about. So don't just take that as absolute strength. If he is semi-bluffing with his draws, he will likely call off to our x/shove and we will be in a great spot to eliminate this player from our table, and a small risk relative to our overall health. He isn't just bet/folding everything other than the nuts here. He is going to be calling with all flush draws, weaker Aces, KQ and such. He might even call with a Qx if he thinks you are bluffing. 

 

Short Version – Play less scared, and less protective of your “current stack”. This was a spot where you very likely missed a lot of value and a great chance to bust a tough oppenent, and it seems that's because he is a “really good reg”. Everyone is playing the same game with the same cards. The difference between you and a very good reg is the decisions that get made with those cards. They don't just magically have the nuts every time (well, some of them seem to…). Again, sorry if this seems harsh, I promise you it wasn't meant that way. I just wish someone had broken me of this exact thinking a long time before I broke myself of it.

BBaton
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September 11, 2014 - 6:59 am
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OneTime1Time, thank you for your reply !!!

 

Your response is very valuable! I am quite new to mtt format so it is still a long road to learn that variant at higher levels.

Your assumptions are very accurate. I like them ! I should 3b there to thin the field to make things easier later on. Then, dont be scared to play the pot against solid player, escepcially when I hit so hard. Thanks for that lesson. I will definitely keep that in mind.

“I know that may sound harsh“. No worries, it is not. I am here to improve my mtt's skills so I am happy to receive some thoughts from more experienced players. As poker player I play mostly games with shallowed stacks so I have to definately improve my postflop skills to boost my confidence when playing deeper.

 

Once again, thank you for your response. Hope to see some extended thoughts from you in future hands.

 

Regards smile

theginger45

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September 13, 2014 - 6:28 am
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Preflop is absolutely fine, you could 3bet AQo here but that can get you into some tricky spots considering we don't want to be stacking off with it this deep. However, the logic that you're flatting because you don't want to play OOP is false, because flatting is the one thing that's guaranteed to lead to playing OOP. If you're scared of the villain (which you shouldn't be), then you should 3bet MORE often, so that it becomes a preflop game and you can't get owned postflop.

On the flop, I don't hate the call, but I prefer a check/raise to around 2900. There are a lot of awkward turn cards, and since you basically have the nuts right now, I think it's a good spot to get value in a big multiway spot like that. I'm never folding to further action on the flop, either. You only lose to 88, and you have 4 outs even against that.

On the turn…I don't know what to say without being harsh. This is a really, really bad fold. AA, KK, QQ and AK would probably be 3bet preflop by the BTN there, so they're not really in his range. The only hands that beat you are 88 and JT, and you still have outs against those. You also have a blocker to the nut flush draw. When you call the flop, it's unlikely your range includes many strong hands, because of how drawy the board is and how hard it is for you to have slowplayed sets of AA or QQ. This means the villain is more likely to fire twice with his bluff range.

He also has a wider preflop range in general when flatting the button multiway. He can have a bunch of A8 combos, K8, Q8, KQ, or he might even just be assuming you're a fish and going for thin value with AJ. You just don't have anywhere close to the level of information or certainty about his range that you would need here in order to fold AQ, when so many of the hands that beat you aren't in his preflop range.

I would check/raise flop since your hand is so strong, but if you call, I think you have to call turn, and call most blank rivers. Your hand is really under-repped.

Foucault

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September 13, 2014 - 9:19 am
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Great post by onetime, definitely take to heart the thinks that he (and Ginger) say about playing against tough opponents. It's MORE important to be balanced and deceptive against these players. If you only raise them with the nuts, you make yourself easier, not harder, to play against.

 

I do have to disagree with Ginger about pre-flop. I think this is a borderline mandatory 3bet. There is a ton of money in the pot already, you are very likely to have the best hand, and worse hands can call you so it's not like you're just turning your hand into a bluff. There's really only one player whose 4-bet could put you in a tough spot, and that's the original raiser. I'd be fine with just folding if that happens, but I'd much rather take it down pre or go to the flop two or three ways with a low SPR than play AQo out of position with a high SPR in a 5-way pot.

 

As played, definitely check-raise the flop.

theginger45

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September 14, 2014 - 4:36 am
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Yeah, very good points. I think I'm a huge nit in these spots.

BBaton
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September 16, 2014 - 12:23 pm
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Thanks guys for your commitment. Got pretty simillar spot this weekend in wcoop and played it for full value 3b/b/b as mentioned above.

 

Im quite new to mtt format and still got difficulties playing deepstacked. Still long road to success.

 

Once again thanks a lot and I hope for your help in future hands smile

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