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January 19, 2014
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Hello all, yes, I folded KK and I am having a hard time figuring out if this was a mistake or not.
Live tournament, 105 participants, $140 buy in, 8000 in chips. Blinds are 1600/800 with 200 ante. 27 people left in the tournament.
I was bb with 27,000
utg 100,000 ( very terrible, passive player, total station ,has built up huge chip stack by running crazy good) opens for 3500
utg +1 40,000 (old guy i know well, not super tight, but not known to shove light..) shoves all in, I feel confident he would not do this with anything other than AA,KK,QQ,AK
utg + 3 30,000 (don't know much about this player) assume this guy is competent and would not call a shove without a range like AA,KK,QQ,AK
I was in bb w 27,000 and I folded KK . I felt like the tight ranges of the 2 all ins, plus with one person to act behind me I should fold…
I have just started learning some basic math and I can't figure out what kind of problem I need to set up to answer this question mathematically..
in hindsight though, even if it proves to be negative ev, was it a mistake just based on my stack size????
thx for the help, and no, it will not hurt my feelings if anyone wants to make fun of me!
May 30, 2012
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Just my thoughts, but this ain't no Main event. it's a $140 daily and you pretty much said the guys in front of you are clowns. I STUFF it and wait to see what happens. you're not close ot the money. First guy opens w/ AJ or 99, second guy jams JJ or AK, third had QQ or AK……… and you have KK. If one of them had AA, it's a cooler……. on to the nxt game sir.
August 9, 2014
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With just around 16 BB left, I would have to agree with the first response and shove. There is enough action in the pot and with how you were describing the villians, I would absolutely shove.
November 4, 2013
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I'm never folding here. I'm not good enough to fold KK pre. I know the kind of players are you talking about, and I'm never folding to them. If I lose, oh well.
However, I don't agree with P-aire in regards to the buy in affecting your decision that much. It shouldn't matter what level you are playing. The only real thing that changes is the level of players, where in a 5K or 10K buy in, you could probably make a case for folding, as the player level is much higher. I probalby still wouldn't though. We have 16BB, chips are going in.
January 19, 2014
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thx for the input all, I agree that it was definitely a mistake based on my stack size…..
August 4, 2014
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This is not a snap call for me. 2 all ins from pretty tight guys. However, as much as you know, they know the opener is opening light. And this definitely justifies P-aire’s case. So I would call and see what happens. This maybe the hand that will give me the shot to win the tournament.
May 30, 2012
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I understand what Onetime1time is saying, but the buyin DOES matter some. You are talking about an entirely differnt class of players from a daily tuesday night casino tourney, to a Borgata event #1, to the WSOP Main event. I will say it's READ dependent. If you feel that strongly the players in front of you are competent and GOOD enough to know hand strenghts ect……… then I understand a fold in THIS EVENT and situation. If this is the MAIN EVENT then I absolutely would fold if it's the middle of Day 1 or we are close to the money.
But, my feeling in this tourney (or ANY small BS tourney like it) is that MOST players aren't very good and some maybe be doing this with weak (GOOD hands to them) AQ, AJ, KQ, 99, 88……maybe even 66. You have KK, the second best starting hand in poker. What other dream situation do you want 17 players from the money. Again, it's 1 of them has AA, you say it's a cooler and move on. I'm this type of tourney, I will NEVER fold KK.
Just saying. Some of these weekend warriors GET tired or impatient and are like “**** IT, lets gamble”. That's not EVER going to happen in a HUGE tourney with semi-pros or PRO's. Just a thought.
Another example would be…… take out the 2 guys who jammed in front of you. You 3bet, original guy 4bets, you 5bet and he 6bet jams…… Are you folding? Prob not, there's too many of your kids in the pot. It's a COOLER………
March 9, 2014
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Completely agree with P-aire. Especially in tourney like this I am never folding. Especially not 16bb. If someone has AA then **** it, gg us. If you fold, in next orbit you are on ~13bbs, then you dont get situation to shove and you are on 10bb. Then big stack monkey calls your AK shove with 75o and gets there and you cry why fishes always get there. You can triple up with KK here and play poker.
I am not that good to fold KK pre and I believe there is really small cases that this would be correct play. I would fold in some major on the bubble, maybe, not completely sure if I am strong enough.
TPE Pro
December 30, 2013
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OneTime1Time said:
I'm never folding here. I'm not good enough to fold KK pre. I know the kind of players are you talking about, and I'm never folding to them. If I lose, oh well.
However, I don't agree with P-aire in regards to the buy in affecting your decision that much. It shouldn't matter what level you are playing. The only real thing that changes is the level of players, where in a 5K or 10K buy in, you could probably make a case for folding, as the player level is much higher. I probalby still wouldn't though. We have 16BB, chips are going in.
the “buy in” shouldnt directly influence how much effort you're putting into each decision—with this sentiment i agree. however, its inevitable that the lower the buy-in, the lower the average skill level of each opponent, and the more likely that they are making big errors. for THIS reason, i'd say “never folding KK in a tournament like this.” i see this point-counter point quite often in forums.
OR: although in principle i dislike “would fold in a 215 but never a $11,” the reality is that your assumptions about these ranges dont hold true a high enough percentage of the time to consider folding KK.
January 27, 2013
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Never folding here.
April 26, 2013
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Snap-fistpump-hooray-get-it-in.
Against some realistic ranges your are always a favourite, ranging from 40 to 55% against two players. That's fantastic if you consider your EV when you triple-up.
May 30, 2012
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I'll add another ex. Last year at an WSOPC $350 event (Playing for a ring) TPE Stars BigDog & Ttwist got into a hand…….. slightly different, but………. it was Tim's KK's vs Casey's AA's I'm very close with both and have talked to Tim about the hand (But if they want to add PLZ DO). Casey is one of the BIGGEST well known Aggro guys in the world of online and LIVE. I remember Casey BLIND raising EVERY hand for an entire round at a WSOPC in Atlantic City about 3 yrs ago. He had 60K at level 4 when ave was 9k. Tim crushes WSOPC events Live esp in AC.
Back to the hand, this was EARLY in teh tourney. They got it in pre. They are best friends & busienss partners. At times, you just can't lay down a huge pair. But, I bet if this was the WSOP 10K Main or WPT 3.5k Main in Montreal, Tim FOLDS……. But he did not in this tourney and sucked out hitting a K to bust Casey. I beleive Tim went on to Final Table this event.
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