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Wacky Main Event Hand—shove or fold
MovesLikeDarvin

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July 14, 2015 - 9:31 pm
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This hand happened to a friend of mine, and before doing some simple math on it, I wanted to get your guys' take

 

Hero: 18k at 150/300/25, UTG1 with JJ

 

UTG is a young player, counts out 700 chips in his shaking hand and then says “seven thousand.” Floor rules its a 7000 open. 

 

Would you shove or fold? Are you assuming we have any fold equity?

navinbits
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July 15, 2015 - 1:55 am
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High variance play.. JJ is a fold here for me. QQ may be a crying call/shove based on villain’s stack. Anything higher is a ship…

michaeldi11on
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July 15, 2015 - 6:46 am
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How many chips did UTG have? Roughly? I'd fold TT and shove QQ. I haven't decided on JJ yet but it seems close. Your 60bb jamming range with 7 people left to act is obv going to look ridicuosly strong so he may fold <JJ and AQ. We obv still have the whole table to get through too. What a weird spot.

Sen
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July 15, 2015 - 12:16 pm
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Why not call and fold to action? Everybody should know that you might as well do this with AA, KK, so we shouldn’t be a target of a light iso almost ever. What do you think about this idea? Every once in a while we might fold to an AK reship, though. Dunno, tough spot – interesting!

ltcolumbo
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July 15, 2015 - 1:31 pm
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seems more like an angle shoot by UTG than anything… 

also, do I want JJ in my 60BB pre-flop shove range?   I would think you have fold equity depending on how deep UTG is.

cfarmerga
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July 15, 2015 - 3:05 pm
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And there's still a full table left to act behind? Seems like an easy fold here.  Maybe worth a little more consideration if you're last to act.

joelshitshow
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July 15, 2015 - 8:21 pm
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Seems like an easy fold if you have no other reads on the raiser. Put another way, the villain needed to have already done something to make me want to raise him. I need to see a reason not to fold.

2blacklabs
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July 16, 2015 - 12:41 pm
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I'm intrigued by the angle shoot aspect of this. Did hero see how the hand played out and see what UTG actually had?

kickazzosx
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July 16, 2015 - 3:56 pm
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The more I think about it this does indeed reek of an angle shoot. Not knowing how many chips villian has behind plus the number of players left to act I'm folding JJ here. In the heat of the moment though? Very interested to know how this played out.

MrPunty
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July 16, 2015 - 5:01 pm
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I would fold. It could be an angle shoot, intentionally done to look weak when he's really strong, or his brain could be spinning so fast that it causes his hands to shake and to mis-state his opening bet – something that doesn't happen with a pair of 4s or ATo. I suspect that it's less likely he's angling as angling is just a lot more rare than a bad case of nerves, but either way I'd suspect a really strong hand and lay the jacks down.

PokerWilo
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July 17, 2015 - 12:59 am
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Tbh I wouldn't think twice about it.  I snap fold.  I mean you're only getting called by better if you jam.  If you call, you're committing nearly half your stack and at that point I don't see how you can fold unless the flop is AKQ.  There's still a ton of players left to act too!  Someone could wake up with AA and there goes your tournament life.  Granted, it's not likely, but still.  The UTG could have AA and be angle shooting or his hand is so big he genuinly started shaking and mistakenly called out 7k.  Either way, it's a really bad spot and it's a snap fold and I don't even sweat it.  As a matter of fact, I think I would fold KK there.  Why risk 60bb to an angle shoot that if he is angle shooting he has AA for sure, and if his hand is so big he can't control himself, well that smells like AA.  And if we're wrong.  Oh well.  Moving on to the next hand and continue to look for better spots.

jacobsharktank
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July 18, 2015 - 1:16 am
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maybe it's because i've spent a lot of time reading Limon's thread on 2+2 recently, but I'm nervous this is an angle like 90% of the time. It's a dumb spot to do it but in their mind, I'd think they're thinking that there's 6+ people who will have a tough time folding 99+ and AK, which is a decent % of the time. But a live misclick angle probably works way more often in late position, given that the openers range should be wider and thus has a lot more hands from which could accidentally open too large. So young player, unless they're super successful, I'm guessing it's an angle a lot of the time. Do we have any reads or results from this?

OneTime1Time
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July 19, 2015 - 9:52 pm
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Pretty much snap folding here and not really caring about it. We are super deep still, and going to have more than enough time to find less smashy spots later on. We aren't likely giving up a lot of EV by folding here. 

 

We don't have much FE. He'll have to call 11k into like 26k, after opening for 23bb pre. 

 

It does seem like a pretty gross angle shoot. 

MovesLikeDarvin

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July 22, 2015 - 9:20 pm
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EDIT My apologies for delays in this response. I wrote an incredibly long and detailed post that failed to send and got erased yell, so here’s attempt #2

First, addressing the replies:

1) Angle-shooting. Buddy from the hand did not believe in-game that the villain intended to/was angle shooting. I didn't really make this clear in OP, my apologies. In any case, I think the more we look at the math of the situation, the less we'll really worry about debating if he's angle shooting or not.

2) Perceptions of villain.  (Again, my fault with OP). Villain is a young TAG, or maybe semi-LAG, player. Probably not a professional but definitely not brain-dead.

3) I dont think we should be concerned about “only getting called by better.” Villain raised to 7k and we have 11k behind. Angling or not, nobody folds for the remaining 11k after live mis-clicking. If we’re “only getting called by better” that means he’ll be folding some hands incorrectly, and maybe we’ll be forcing out some hands that have 45-50% equity against us (KQs, for example).

4) What about people left to act? I thought this was actually a pretty interesting question to ask, since we have 7 players left to act, so I tried my best to incorporate that into our equations. If we were to jam over this raise, lets assume we'll only get called by AA and KK. I calculated one of the other 7 players in the hand will wake up with these hands ~6% of the time. (1-[1314/1326]^7). This won't be *perfect* as it does not consider UTG's opening range/blockers. As it turns out, this consideration lessened our EV somewhat but never enough to fundamentally change our decision (see below).

With these in mind, let's break down a few possibilities:

1) He opens a pretty tight UTG range and never folds to our shove. (The Fold Equity = 0 Scenario) Here, for some simplicity, I gave him a top 10% opening range, which is {AA-77,AxKx-Ax9x,AxKy-AxJy,KxQx-KxTx,KxQy,QxJx}. JJ has 58% equity against this range.

EV(JJ) = 0.94[0.58(18700) + .42(-18,000)] + 0.06[.19(25,700) + .81(-18,000)]

EV = 2704 (+9.01bb)

2) What if he opens a tight range and stack sizes pressure him to fold his worst hands? I removed A9s, KQo, KJo, and QJs from his calling range, gave us the proper FE and ran our equity against the remaining hands. Our equity changed only very slightly (57%), and now we take down the pot about 20% of the time by shoving.  

EV(JJ) = 0.94[.19(7,700) + (.81)[.57(18700) + .43(-18,000)]] + 0.06[.19(25,700) + .81(-18,000)]

EV(JJ) = 3015 (+10.05bb)

We'll also expect to bust the tournament less over the no-fold scenario—38% instead of 44%.

3) What if he's angle shooting? For our worst-case scenario, I gave him the top 5% of hands and calling 100% of the time. JJ is still 49% vs that range.

EV(JJ) = .49(18700) + .51(-18,000)

EV(JJ) = 9163 – 9180

EV(JJ) = -17 (-0.06bb)

We basically break even (but risk busting the main ½ the time) even when he's at the top of his range. If we factor in how often another random wakes up with AA-KK, we’re losing about 2bb on average in this scenario.

Lastly, for me, the litmus test of this spot is what our EV would be even if Villain was a superuser who played perfectly vs our hand, so

4) What if he could play perfectly vs our shove? He would call with all hands in his opening range that have at least 42.8% equity vs JJ, which happens to be {AA-JJ,AxKx,AxQx,AxKy,AxQy,KxQx,KxQy} (72 combos)

How tightly / How few combos does he have to be opening for our shove to be un-profitable?

5.6% = 76 combos {AA-JJ,AK-AQ,KQ,AxJx}

(.94)[(0.055)(7,700) + (0.945)[0.49(18,700) + .51(-18,000)]] + 0.06[.19(25,700) + .81(-18,000)]

-198

Top 6.5% = 88 combos

(.94)[(0.18)(7,700) + (0.82)[0.49(18,700) + .51(-18,000)]] + 0.06[.19(25,700) + .81(-18,000)]

+708

Top 10% = 132 combos

(.94)[0.455(7,700) + .545[(0.46)(18,700) + 0.54(-18,000)]] + (0.06)[.19(25,700) + .81(-18,000)]

+2139

Even if Villain could see our hand and play perfectly, he would still have to start with an incredibly tight opening range for our shove to be unprofitable in a vacuum.

———-

When first approached about the hand, I told Hero I would probably shove and hate life, but still shove. After looking at the math more closely, I am much more in favor of shoving. The downside is we will expect to bust the tournament somewhere around 40% of the time we do this, and I suspect that will make some of us want to fold “because it’s the main.” To be fair, I don’t know exactly what % threshold should make us unwilling to take on a profitable cEV play in a field such as this. It may be the main event, but how many +900bb/100 spots can we afford to pass on?

Result: Hero shoved JJ and was sigh-called by UTG's AQ. He lost the flip to bust.

hawkeyeK9
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July 23, 2015 - 12:30 am
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Great post Chris and really enjoyed your analysis!

PokerWilo
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July 23, 2015 - 2:25 am
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MovesLikeDarvin said:

With these in mind, let's break down a few possibilities:

1) He opens a pretty tight UTG range and never folds to our shove. (The Fold Equity = 0 Scenario) Here, for some simplicity, I gave him a top 10% opening range, which is {AA-77,AxKx-Ax9x,AxKy-AxJy,KxQx-KxTx,KxQy,QxJx}. JJ has 58% equity against this range.

EV(JJ) = 0.94[0.58(18700) + .42(-18,000)] + 0.06[.19(25,700) + .81(-18,000)]

EV = 2704 (+9.01bb)

2) What if he opens a tight range and stack sizes pressure him to fold his worst hands? I removed A9s, KQo, KJo, and QJs from his calling range, gave us the proper FE and ran our equity against the remaining hands. Our equity changed only very slightly (57%), and now we take down the pot about 20% of the time by shoving.  

EV(JJ) = 0.94[.19(7,700) + (.81)[.57(18700) + .43(-18,000)]] + 0.06[.19(25,700) + .81(-18,000)]

EV(JJ) = 3015 (+10.05bb)

We'll also expect to bust the tournament less over the no-fold scenario—38% instead of 44%.

3) What if he's angle shooting? For our worst-case scenario, I gave him the top 5% of hands and calling 100% of the time. JJ is still 49% vs that range.

EV(JJ) = .49(18700) + .51(-18,000)

EV(JJ) = 9163 – 9180

EV(JJ) = -17 (-0.06bb)

We basically break even (but risk busting the main ½ the time) even when he's at the top of his range. If we factor in how often another random wakes up with AA-KK, we’re losing about 2bb on average in this scenario.

Lastly, for me, the litmus test of this spot is what our EV would be even if Villain was a superuser who played perfectly vs our hand, so

4) What if he could play perfectly vs our shove? He would call with all hands in his opening range that have at least 42.8% equity vs JJ, which happens to be {AA-JJ,AxKx,AxQx,AxKy,AxQy,KxQx,KxQy} (72 combos)

How tightly / How few combos does he have to be opening for our shove to be un-profitable?

5.6% = 76 combos {AA-JJ,AK-AQ,KQ,AxJx}

(.94)[(0.055)(7,700) + (0.945)[0.49(18,700) + .51(-18,000)]] + 0.06[.19(25,700) + .81(-18,000)]

-198

Top 6.5% = 88 combos

(.94)[(0.18)(7,700) + (0.82)[0.49(18,700) + .51(-18,000)]] + 0.06[.19(25,700) + .81(-18,000)]

+708

Top 10% = 132 combos

(.94)[0.455(7,700) + .545[(0.46)(18,700) + 0.54(-18,000)]] + (0.06)[.19(25,700) + .81(-18,000)]

+2139

Even if Villain could see our hand and play perfectly, he would still have to start with an incredibly tight opening range for our shove to be unprofitable in a vacuum.

———-

When first approached about the hand, I told Hero I would probably shove and hate life, but still shove. After looking at the math more closely, I am much more in favor of shoving. The downside is we will expect to bust the tournament somewhere around 40% of the time we do this, and I suspect that will make some of us want to fold “because it’s the main.” To be fair, I don’t know exactly what % threshold should make us unwilling to take on a profitable cEV play in a field such as this. It may be the main event, but how many +900bb/100 spots can we afford to pass on?

Result: Hero shoved JJ and was sigh-called by UTG's AQ. He lost the flip to bust.

In game, what would you do w TT?  AQ?  What is the bottom of your shoving range?  I just don't see villain ever calling with worse than AQ, JJ which if I followed correctly, is less than 5% of the deck making the JJ shove -ev, and risking your main event tournament life.  I just feel like in this spot, we have to hope that villain's 1) not angling, 2) that he's opening wide utg and misclicked w/o a huge hand, 3) that if called, he's at the bottom of his calling range, and 4) nobody behind wakes up.  Risk to reward just doesn't seem to justify anything other than folding here imho.  Obv we can't do all this math at the table, I just think in game, it's a fold.

 

In theory, I guess it shouldn't matter the fact that it's the Main.  But, in reality, playing a $10k means it's taking a shot for many and outside their BR for tournaments.  That being said, should one be inclined to take more risk or less when playing higher buyin tournaments?

navinbits
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July 23, 2015 - 2:55 am
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@MoveslikeDarvin,

I understand that if we shove JJ here, we are ahead 60% of the time. My question is, why are you not bringing variance into the question here? Isn't this a high variance spot (raise being 20x BB) and more than 1/3 of our stack, and no point in calling to see a flop, we are effectively all-in… Even if it is a 60-40 or a 70-30, doesn't variance make you fold here to look for better spots?

 

Similar question my friend asked me.. In a $2080 local casino big event, a guy shoved all-in late position to an UTG raise in the FIRST hand (50-100, with 15k chips). UTG called with QQ and lost to JJ after J hit a straight. Now, isnt this a high variance spot where you can fold and wait for better spots?

MovesLikeDarvin

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July 24, 2015 - 3:01 pm
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Wilo,

First,
a great way to explore where the bottom of your shoving range lies here, is to continue with the “Playing Perfectly” analysis above, but instead substituting your TT in for JJ, and re-running numbers. There, we’d ask “How would we fare even if Villain could see we had TT and called with every hand with >=43% equity vs TT?” You could then re-write the EV equation with the proper numbers and see how TT fares.

Hint: Villain could now call us with 102 combos in his original opening range, {AA-TT,AK-AJ,KQ,KxJx,QxJx}, and TT has 46.5% equity against that range. Hope this is a good start.

Second,
We actually dont have to “hope” for much of anything. As I showed in the post above, the math demonstrates we are actually sort of indifferent to him “angle-shooting” or not. In the EV analysis, even if we were nearly 100% sure he was angle shooting (and we’re not), we’re still breaking even by shoving into that range. If he’s ever opening ANYTHING wider than 5% (hint: he is), we can show a built-in profit by shoving.

Third,
The risk-reward for a 10k is going to be up to each individual person, and reflect their own reasons for playing the event. Sounds like a stock-photo answer, but it’s really the truth. Some players play to gamble it up and maximize their “sweat,” others are trying to at least cash so they have a return on their (once/twice in a lifetime) investment, while yet others claim to only play for the bracelet. How you “should” treat a 10k in this regard isnt advice any pro can properly give you.

MovesLikeDarvin

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July 24, 2015 - 3:26 pm
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@MoveslikeDarvin,

I understand that if we shove JJ here, we are ahead 60% of the time. My question is, why are you not bringing variance into the question here? Isn’t this a high variance spot (raise being 20x BB) and more than 1/3 of our stack, and no point in calling to see a flop, we are effectively all-in… Even if it is a 60-40 or a 70-30, doesn’t variance make you fold here to look for better spots?

 

Similar question my friend asked me.. In a $2080 local casino big event, a guy shoved all-in late position to an UTG raise in the FIRST hand (50-100, with 15k chips). UTG called with QQ and lost to JJ after J hit a straight. Now, isnt this a high variance spot where you can fold and wait for better spots?

Navin,

Variance is inherent in all forms of poker, especially tournament No-Limit. Although I’ve sometimes been a proponent of avoiding unnecessary high-variance spots in the past, I feel this spot is unavoidable given the circumstances, and that it is clearly profitable to continue with JJ as stated above. Do we “love” knowing that we risk busting the MAIN EVENT 30-40% of the time here? Obviously not. But a 60-70% edge is often one you cannot afford to pass up in NL MTTs. It’s hard to get dealt JJ-AA (the top 1/20th of hands), so if we’re semi-routinely passing up on them when we feel “uncomfortable” with the variance, we’re going to be missing out on a lot of chips over the course of a 7-day tourney.

For more on exploring this (common) topic, I’d check out these:
…..t-1/#_ftn2
…..ed-part-2/

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