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April 16, 2013
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I watched this hand on EPT London last night (Series 5, episode 7) and would be interested as to what you guys think of Patel's play against Julius range. It's a very interesting hand
Dhru Patel is apparently playing the highest stakes cash games live in London and Kyle Julius is obviously a very strong online/live player. Patel is chip leader of the EPT at the time and both him and Kyle have been active 3betting, stealing etc before this hand. This hand is on feature table.
400/800 blinds.
Patel in MP (201k or 250bb) opens QdJc to 1700.
Kyle (85k or 105bb) 3bets in position (i think in the HJ) to 3800.
Patel flats 2100 out of position
Flop (9700) – Kh 7c 5c
Patel checks. Kyle cbets 3400. Patel calls.
Turn (16,500) – Jd
Patel (196k) checks, Kyle (78k) bets 7200, Patel check raises to 17500. Kyle calls 10,300 leaving himself with 61k behind.
River (51,500) 8h
Final board – Kh 7c 5c Jd 8h
Patel puts Kyle all in for 61000 effective. (Patel would have 128k or 160bb left if Kyle calls and he loses)
———–
What do you think of Patels play? Genius? Terrible? Unnecessary? Wreckless?
What do you think his range is
What can Kyle call with? What does he have to fold?
Patel explained his thinking after the hand but it would be interesting to hear what other people think first…
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Hard to say against Kyle specifically but I think it's very good against a lot of players. It's hard to make two-pair or better, and it's hard to call without it. Especially if Dhru thinks Kyle wouldn't 3-bet some hands like 77, 75, and 55 then it turns a ton of his range into bluff-catchers.
I'd really encourage you to take the term “Unnecessary” out of your poker vocabulary. I really don't think that in most situations there exists a category of plays that are profitable but “unnecessary”. What would that even mean? Like, you are guaranteed to win the tournament even if you don't make this play? Otherwise, making profitable plays is how you get chips and win tournaments, so how could they be unencessary?
April 16, 2013
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Yea it certainly changes the majority of his range to become bluff catchers.
I understand your use of the term unnecessary but I meant – “do you think he would win the hand the majority of the time without using this play” (but i think the answer is no). Unnecessary to play QJ this way as he will win at showdown against 99, TT, 88 anyway so theres no need to turn your hand into a bluff and risk an additional 100bb to win this 20bb pot.
FWIW I don't think its unnecessary because in my opinion, Dhru picking up a J has no effect on his level of showdown value relative to Kyles range. However, players newer to the game may deem this play unnecessary as they believe they have showdown value but relative to Kyles range, they do not.
What do you think Kyle's river range looks like before Dhru shoves? AK, AA, KK, JJ, maybe a stubborn QQ then some random bluffs like AQ, QT, 86, 89?
June 3, 2012
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I didnt really like it.
He had decent showdown value and can bluff catch river. Although he did the “pros explain” I personally didnt think he knew where he was in the hand and panic shoved. Turning a J into a bluff here is bad imo.
June 3, 2012
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michae1di11on said:
FWIW I don't think its unnecessary because in my opinion, Dhru picking up a J has no effect on his level of showdown value relative to Kyles range. However, players newer to the game may deem this play unnecessary as they believe they have showdown value but relative to Kyles range, they do not.
This could be me^^ hahaa
April 16, 2013
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Yea I'll write what he said in the “pro explains” bit soon. I think if I write it now, it may kill the discussion about his thought process and Kyles turn and river range.
December 24, 2013
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would you mind writing it in a spoiler of sorts? i'm at work and would really like to know, as i'm sure my quick analysis likely won't be nearly as “there” as his own.
April 16, 2013
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I just sent you the results in a message to keep the thread going a bit longer
February 20, 2013
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Spewy on all streets.
April 16, 2013
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Ok – here is the results of the hand and the comments from Dhru Patel after it.
Basically he said that he knew Kyle is a very good player.He thinks Kyles 3betting range is wide, both players are deep and he's happy to flat pre.
Once Kyle cbets Dhru thinks he has 88,99,TT type hand and possibly QQ
He says he's range merging by check raising the turn. Sometimes his hand is good and sometimes it's not. “But it's better for me to raise here than to call because calling is such a weak play in this spot”.”I think I can get called by hands that I'm beating 88-TT but when he tank-calls I think he has QK or QT and not 88-TT.
So now he says, Dhru is defintely not ahead and the only way to win this pot is by betting big on the river (according to him). He says his river range is really strong, he can have 9T with a double gutshot (and Kyle knows this) and when he checks the river, Kyle will check behind too often with a better hand. So he shoves… Because he overbets, he expects Kyle to know this doesn't happen very often so he can make a big laydown.
“Obviously i wanted him to fold, and i felt great when he folded”. Kyle folded…
However Kyle actually only had 9d8d and had an easy fold. This is pretty irrelevant to the discussion though, obviously this was the very bottom of his range.
February 20, 2013
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Yuk, spew play and weak spew justification.
“Once Kyle cbets Dhru thinks he has 88,99,TT type hand and possibly QQ”
What about sets, AA, many K combos, countless club draw combos? Kyle doesn't c-bet the strong parts of his range on a straightening and flushing flop with healthy effective stacks and an aggro image? Flop flat seems gawd-awful, worse than his preflop one. If he reads the flop cbet as weak, then the time to start bluffing is here with a c/r flop, lead turn line.
Turn check raises are neat and effective, but this isn't the hand for it IMO. Do it with the parts of your range that aren't made hands yet but have good draw equity. Once he's here, a Dhru turn flat isn't that weak, it reps KQ and many good aggro players will not risk the 3rd barrell if they put villain on TPGK. I do think we have some equity with 2nd pair vs Kyles turn barrell range, his hand at showdown confirms this. Kyle got to the river with the “very bottom of his range” and this shows how bad the play is. If he's flatting the turn c/r with a double gutter with one to come, is he really folding the weak parts of his made value range enough?
Once he manages to get to the river like this I don't hate the ship, but I don't love it either.
Wonder how often Kyle bets big on river if checked to without showdown value….
Could somebody explain to me the benefit of having a merged turn c/r range?
March 11, 2014
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I watched a number of hands that Dhru played and I didn't really understand any of them but he's doing really well. I wonder if it's his cash game background…..I know I do reasonably well in MTT's but get slaughtered in cash games. I think he's playing what he thinks his opponent holds against what he thinks his opponent thinks he might have and putting them in some really tough spots.
I'd love to learn more about this as I suspect some tournaments are won this way and you don't have to depend on running good.
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