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September 14, 2014
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#Game No : 808122884
***** 888poker Hand History for Game 808122884 *****
$100/$200 Blinds No Limit Holdem – ***
Tournament #76423491 $4.50 + $0.50 – Table #14 9 Max (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: taxi3864 ( $1,185 )
Seat 3: atanasabes ( $7,239 )
Seat 4: zelenskj ( $11,204 )
Seat 5: london_ace ( $12,373 )
Seat 6: mrchow58 ( $13,965 )
Seat 7: galyya1961 ( $11,826 )
Seat 9: andrei.hbl ( $7,545 )
Seat 10: Hammerfest ( $14,250 )
galyya1961 posts ante [$25]
atanasabes posts ante [$25]
Hammerfest posts ante [$25]
zelenskj posts ante [$25]
mrchow58 posts ante [$25]
andrei.hbl posts ante [$25]
taxi3864 posts ante [$25]
london_ace posts ante [$25]
zelenskj posts small blind [$100]
london_ace posts big blind [$200]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to london_ace [ 9
, A
]
mrchow58 folds
galyya1961 folds
andrei.hbl folds
Hammerfest folds
taxi3864 folds
atanasabes folds
zelenskj raises [$400]
london_ace calls [$300]
** Dealing flop ** [ 9
, J, 5
]
zelenskj checks
london_ace bets [$600]
zelenskj calls [$600]
** Dealing turn ** [ 6 ]
zelenskj checks
london_ace checks
** Dealing river ** [ Q ]
zelenskj bets [$1,200]
london_ace ???
hey
only played 1 pot with v , v was in mp1 and hero mp2 with AhQc which they won when they barreled on a board of 6c9d2c5c.
thoughts on the river? i have a hard time believing that v has monster hands in their range given how the hand was played out. It’s possible that they got there with KT/ T8s or making a thin value bet with Q8s though i think most opponents will bet these draws otf.
thoughts? call or fold river?
cheers.
June 3, 2015
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gotta be a fold , 1 hand played means nothing right? maybe he had AA or better that last hand , with third pair i would deff fold ,if he had 77, 88 , TT, AK they would try bring it to showdown
May 20, 2015
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I’m really struggling to give villain any bluffs here. Not sure why we would call here. Why do you not think villains line doesn’t make any sense? I think T8, KT, QT, KQ, AQ all play this way, you’ll find some players taking this line with when they flop hard as well so don’t think we can discount all monster combos. What bluffs can we give him?
February 20, 2015
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Welcome back.
What do you think about 3-betting pre?
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Easy fold, the check-call on the flop should eliminate most air hands from V’s range, which means few bluffs for him on river. I also think turn is a pretty easy value bet.
Not wild about 3-betting pre, V will have dominated hands in his opening range but not in his calling range, so basically you’re turning a good hand into a bluff. Should be more polarized when you 3b.
September 14, 2014
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Thanks joel 🙂
yeah pretty much what foucault said , should polarize range.
If v was on the button i’d much rather be prefer 3-betting a hand like KQs/KJs/JQs/ATs and A9s. basically we can merge our 3-bet range so thats pretty much 3-betting the middle of our range and top of our range as well. Since V will be IP they’ll likely call more with a wider range pre. In this hand v will be OOP so he’s likely fold more to 3-bets with their weaker hands that A9 dominates so better to polarize.
andrew , i would of thought value betting 2nd pair here would be pretty mehhh lol. Is this a protection/thin value bet ott? our value target be 9x 77/88 and secondary targets would be KT/KQ/QTs/Q8s/T8s.
@kmid , the reason why i dont think it makes any sense is because i reckon v will tend to c-bet flop with most of their draws like QT/T8s. I guess thats wrong for me to think that though since a lot of players c/c with these hands otf as well. So it’s not like i can discount these from their range. A lot of hands that they c/c with otf may of improved their range otr for sure , which means its unlikely that we are facing a bluff otr.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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folding_aces_pre_yo said
Thanks joel 🙂
yeah pretty much what foucault said , should polarize range.
If v was on the button i’d much rather be prefer 3-betting a hand like KQs/KJs/JQs/ATs and A9s. basically we can merge our 3-bet range so thats pretty much 3-betting the middle of our range and top of our range as well. Since V will be IP they’ll likely call more with a wider range pre. In this hand v will be OOP so he’s likely fold more to 3-bets with their weaker hands that A9 dominates so better to polarize.
andrew , i would of thought value betting 2nd pair here would be pretty mehhh lol. Is this a protection/thin value bet ott? our value target be 9x 77/88 and secondary targets would be KT/KQ/QTs/Q8s/T8s.
@kmid , the reason why i dont think it makes any sense is because i reckon v will tend to c-bet flop with most of their draws like QT/T8s. I guess thats wrong for me to think that though since a lot of players c/c with these hands otf as well. So it’s not like i can discount these from their range. A lot of hands that they c/c with otf may of improved their range otr for sure , which means its unlikely that we are facing a bluff otr.
Suppose V were to k/f so often on the turn after taking this line that A9 were not ahead of his calling range. Would be pretty damn profitable for you to bet like this with any two cards, n’est pas?
September 14, 2014
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what does K/f mean? and what is n’est pas lol 😮
The thing is dont you think we should not be making really thin value bets in tournaments because their ev+ is only a little from what i’ve heard from JL, he was saying how in cash games its OK as then at least you can rebuy if you’re wrong. The problem andrew is that as you know with your hand reading expertise and experience of poker, is that when you bet a hand like 2nd pair hands that you got beat are going to fold anyway. In this spot though i believe a lot of worse hands are still calling , hands that have decent equity vs our hand and that we would not mind them folding flop or turn,correct? or do we actually want them to call….i’m gussing we want them to fold here even so we do gain value by a call.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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They mean “check fold” and “no?”, respectively.
You’re right about not making the thinnest value bets in tournaments. However, I don’t think a turn bet here is particularly thin. You still haven’t told me why you think V is folding all/most hands that A9 is crushing (dominated 9s, for instance), whereas I explained why V has incentive to call down with worse (and also, importantly, to bet many of his better hands on flop).
Is this a spot where you tend to barrel any two cards? If not, why not? Considering how wide starting ranges are/should be, you should have the best hand on the turn quite often.
September 14, 2014
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i actually don’t think v is folding 9x if we bet turn so you’re right that there’s value to be gained. so yeah i dont think v is folding all/most hands that A9 dominates, I think v will fold 5x to a turn bet and PP’s though which they may have c/c flop with , even then they may call with those? but i would’nt think that would be decent play by them. Reason being is because when we bet turn our range would include Jx and 9x which is ahead of those weaker hands.
Is this spot would i barrel any two? umm probably not..i’d barrel my draws like QTs/KTs , T7s and T8s. i reckon i’d barrel turn with any two if i knew v is c/c flop and folding to a turn bet a high % of the time..i will also barrel turn with hands that improved ott which may include Q 4 , if called and say the river was 3 i’d probably bet big to get v to fold 9x that would be my bluff target. This makes me wonder now that if the river was say 3 and we have A9 should we be betting big otr to get value from weaker 9x or would you rather go smaller like half pot? what im trying to get at here is how can we balance our play here? when it comes to our value/bluff range otr? if i had queen high otr i’d probably want to bet big to get v to fold 9x so it makes me think that we should be betting big as well with A9. if we are not doing this then we may aswell just bet smaller with A9 and smaller with our bluff hands as well which is anywhere between 1/3 to 1/2 of the pot.
September 14, 2014
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what im trying to say is that would it be okay if we bet big with our bluff range and bet small with A9 in this spot or would it be better to balance it with the same sizing with both our value/bluff range? v range will be quite strong when they call 2 streets , they may also have some missed draws otr , which makes me think that betting small with both our value and bluff range would be okay. Thing is its quite difficult to get 3 streets with A9 anyway.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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You’ll often want to check back river after V check-calls turn. I think you’re asking two different things about sizing. In terms of GTO sizing, it’s tricky and probably river card-dependent and I’m not sure the answer. As to whether it’s “OK” to use different sizes with bluffs or value hands, that just depends on whether you think you can play the leveling game better than V, as with anything exploitive you choose to do.
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