ZakLawson said:

I think with hands such as JJ you'd have to look at the mathematics, but I dont think a flat with Jacks is out of the question in the situation described.

Personally I like to 3bet alot from UTG+1, always doubling the open, so say the open was 240 – id make it 480, I do this with AA and with 57o because it does look super strong, which is good for 57, and on the other hand UTG has much more chance than other situations of 4betting, which is good for AA. And of course being balanced is the key when playing with the same players.

If anything balance is most important when playing with unknown players where you don't know how to guess they will respond. If you play someone often and know he will interpret the UTG1 3bet as strong, then you may choose to exploit that by 3-betting lighter. Against someone else you play often who doesn't give 3bets from EP enough credit, you might exploit him by only doing it with AA. Whether or not you are striving for balance, though, it's pretty hard to construct a scenario where doing it with 75o is a good idea. Even if UTG will fold often enough for your cards not to matter, there are 7 other players behind you who can wake up with hands.

bingocome said:

Foucault said:

Whether or not you are striving for balance, though, it's pretty hard to construct a scenario where doing it with 75o is a good idea. Even if UTG will fold often enough for your cards not to matter, there are 7 other players behind you who can wake up with hands.

 

I think so too… Was just doing some math in my head – 

Let's consider only preflop,  you need everybody to fold about 50% of the time for your 3bet to show profit ( you risk 4BB to win 4.5BB). Assume player will call or raise your 3 bet with top 3% hands (QQ plus, AK), there are prob 20% chance that at least one of the 7 player not act yet will show up with such hands. Then assume UTG open with top 10% hands, there are 30% chance he will defend your 3 bet. Together 50% of the times someone will defend. You won't show much, if at all , profit preflop since our defending range assumption might be too conservative.   As far as post flop goes, once called your 75o equity is really bad and may lose even more post flop by trying to keep representing, etc… so overall not sure if adding 75o to your 3bet range alone is profitable, not to mention the variance. 

Nice analysis, bingo. The bit about 75o being -EV postflop is highly unlikely to be right, though. There's a big difference between realizing less than your equity share and actually being worse off seeing a flop than not, which is what you seem to suggest at the end. The latter is awfully tough to pull off. In actuality the fact that you have big hands like AA in your range whereas your opponent usually 4bets them should make barreling in a 3bet pot pretty profitable. The reason not to do this with 75o is that there are much better hands for doing it.

bingocome said:

Foucault said:

bingocome said:

Foucault said:

Whether or not you are striving for balance, though, it's pretty hard to construct a scenario where doing it with 75o is a good idea. Even if UTG will fold often enough for your cards not to matter, there are 7 other players behind you who can wake up with hands.

 

I think so too… Was just doing some math in my head – 

Let's consider only preflop,  you need everybody to fold about 50% of the time for your 3bet to show profit ( you risk 4BB to win 4.5BB). Assume player will call or raise your 3 bet with top 3% hands (QQ plus, AK), there are prob 20% chance that at least one of the 7 player not act yet will show up with such hands. Then assume UTG open with top 10% hands, there are 30% chance he will defend your 3 bet. Together 50% of the times someone will defend. You won't show much, if at all , profit preflop since our defending range assumption might be too conservative.   As far as post flop goes, once called your 75o equity is really bad and may lose even more post flop by trying to keep representing, etc… so overall not sure if adding 75o to your 3bet range alone is profitable, not to mention the variance. 

Nice analysis, bingo. The bit about 75o being -EV postflop is highly unlikely to be right, though. There's a big difference between realizing less than your equity share and actually being worse off seeing a flop than not, which is what you seem to suggest at the end. The latter is awfully tough to pull off. In actuality the fact that you have big hands like AA in your range whereas your opponent usually 4bets them should make barreling in a 3bet pot pretty profitable. The reason not to do this with 75o is that there are much better hands for doing it.

My concern regarding post flop is that

A) You are forced to barrel a lot while you don't have enough information on how ppl play post flop during tournament

B) You don't always have position once called

C) you don't know exactly your opponent's calling range, how often they trapping you with AA KK ect.

These factors make the barreling strategy risky to pull out and can easily cause you lots BB if you have the wrong reads. And if you do make mistake postflop, it will negate the small actual equity you manage to realize with hand like 75o. 

If you end up LOSING EV post-flop that means that you would be better off just throwing your hand into the muck if your opponent calls your 3bet rather than trying to play it out. I can't imagine you really believe that?

Sure there will be situations where you'll bluff unsuccessfully and there will also be situations where you bluff successfully and some where you get an A77 flop and win a big pot and a few where you get an A77 flop and lose a big pot. If you average out all of those possibilities, you'd have to play pretty damn badly to get a negative number.

A) You aren't forced to barrel. You have the opportunity to assess the situation and make a decision about whether to barrel.

B) Your chance of winning the pot certainly goes down considerably if someone cold calls you, that's for sure. It's still better than getting cold 4-bet, though. Even if you check-fold any time you don't flop 2pair+ (which you probably should), you're still better off seeing the flop.

C) You never know your opponent's exact range. That doesn't mean you can never bluff profitably. Barreling doesn't absolutely depend on reads for its profitability. You can watch my bluffing series for more on this.