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two dollar MTT pocket 8s in bb
thaWONthaOWNLEE
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October 13, 2013 - 4:11 am
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Hand converter was giving me problems so i'll try to replay this hand as best i can without the converter.

Hero is in the bb with 88 on a 33 bb stack. Blinds are 200/400 with a 40 ante. UTG (villian), a 16/16/0 over 95 hands, minraises. UTG+1, a 23/10/4 over 335 hands flats, it folds around to the button, who flats as well. I flat in the bb.

UTG started the hand with 26bbs, utg+1 started with 70bbs and the btn started with 9bbs.

the flop comes out 224r.

The UTG opener leads out 1200 into a 3720 pot. UTG+1 and the btn fold. I rasie to 2757. UTG folds

The reason I raised was because the lead felt weak to me. He bet less than 1/3 pot. I put him on two big cards. So instead of flatting and possibly seeing a high car hit on the turn, i just decided to blow him off his ace highs or K highs. I was planning on folding to a raise becuase I thought he would do this with a range almost entirely of big pairs. This is why I made the raise so small. I felt like he would always fold without a pair and would raise me with a bigger pair.

 

Anyways, I hope that last paragragh made sense. I just finished 12 straight hours of grinding which is kinda long for me and my brain feels drained. Thoughts on my play and reasoning?

theginger45

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October 13, 2013 - 11:02 pm
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I really don't like the flop raise. What you're effectively doing is turning your hand into a bluff, because pocket eights is probably pretty close to the exact cutoff point where he would never call your raise with a worse hand, but he would never fold a better hand. There should be a name for this exact cutoff hand, but I can't think of one yet. I'll coin the phrase when I can think of something.

If you're putting the UTG raiser on two big cards – which is far too specific a range to begin with, because you acknowledged in your explanation of your raise that it's a possibility he also has a bigger pair than yours – then there's no reason at all to raise, besides being scared of seeing a turn card, which is not a valid reason. If he has two big cards, he has six outs – the rest of the time, when those six outs don't hit the turn (six outs x one card = roughly 12% of the time) you still have the best hand. All you're doing by raising is getting him to fold all his weaker hands that might have put in further bets on later streets, and valuecutting yourself against stronger hands.

In essence, your reasoning is backwards. You have a pretty good hand, 88 on a 224 flop. Why would you want to take an action that a) prevents you from getting value from his worse hands, and b) loses you more chips against his better hands? A better approach to take would have been to put the villain on a range preflop, and then again on the flop, and make a flop decision based on your assessment of that range. To me, it seems that the obvious flop play is to call and see a turn card – some turns you can call again, some turns you can fold. You're probably doing okay against his range right now if it contains a lot of 'big card' hands, but you're also crushed by all the bigger pairs. Don't be scared to call and see another street with a middling hand like this – overplaying it, as I believe you did, could cost you more chips.

AJLV
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October 14, 2013 - 12:27 am
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So you check raise him on that flop?  Why?  If you are right and he has two big cards then he just folds, or floats your check raise and now when a big card hits the turn what are you going to do.  You eliminate a 2 from your range immediately, and probably a 4, so it looks like you have an overpair.  

Like the other poster said you are turning your hand into a bluff.  It is easy enough to just check call and since you completed in the BB, you keep your range very wide, evaluate the turn and decide whether leading or check raising the turn makes sense.  You will, over time, get more value out of seeing later streets especially when you know you are in the lead.  Playing this way is like jamming pocket AA preflop and then saying “I didn't want anyone to catch up.”  Only this is a bit worse because you are only giving one card.    

CCuster 911
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October 14, 2013 - 4:32 pm
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Agree with everything the ginger said.  I think the flop is a fairly standard c/c as played.

 

However given spots I dont a donk lead here as I dont expect villain to c bet often into 3 people too wide.  And aginst aggro villains its going to get costly to c/c down.  By c betting we can dictate price more, and prevent the flop going checked.  At this elvel many people will not bluff over a donk here, so we are fairly confident in our c/f being good agasint everyone. 

 

I probably c/c liek 75% and donk lead liek 25% here, depnding on table flow,my image, and their image.

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