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Home Forum MTT Poker Strategy Turn Spot - KK Laydown?

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Turn Spot - KK Laydown?

magpienath

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February 15, 2018 - 8:13 pm

Can I call UTG and then if player behind shoves then fold? I am unsure if taking the call then fold to a shove is a better line then jamming over UTG shove to protect my hand. This is quite a low buy-in so if he somehow caught the Q I would expect him to stack off a high % of the time. This is late in a tourney aswell

What are your thoughts on the line you would take when getting post flop? The hand details are posted below.

Hero (UTG+1): 72.97 BB
MP: 62.66 BB
MP+1: 40.97 BB
CO: 28.58 BB
BTN: 68.13 BB
SB: 48.96 BB
BB: 15.19 BB
[b]UTG: 22.43

8 players post ante of 0 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

[b]Pre Flop: (pot: 2.5 BB) Hero has K club K heart

UTG raises to 2.1 BB, Hero calls 2.1 BB, MP calls 2.1 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold

Flop: (8.8 BB, 3 players) 4 spade 6 diamond 3 diamond
UTG bets 4.31 BB, Hero calls 4.31 BB, MP calls 4.31 BB

Turn: (21.74 BB, 3 players) Q diamond
UTG bets 15.9 BB and is all-in, Hero raises to 66.44 BB and is all-in, MP calls 56.13 BB and is all-in

River: (149.89 BB, 3 players) 9 diamond

UTG shows 5 spade 5 diamond (Flush, Queen High)

Main Pot [69.43 BB]: (Pre 19%, Flop 26%, Turn 0%)

Hero shows K club K heart (One Pair, Kings)

Main Pot [69.43 BB]: (Pre 54%, Flop 33%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot#1 [80.46 BB]: (Pre 68%, Flop 56%, Turn 0%)

MP shows A diamond J diamond (Flush, Ace High)

Main Pot [69.43 BB]: (Pre 27%, Flop 41%, Turn 100%)
Side Pot#1 [80.46 BB]: (Pre 32%, Flop 44%, Turn 100%)

Hero wins 10.31 BB
MP wins 80.46 BB
MP wins 69.43 BB

Foucault

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February 16, 2018 - 9:18 am

I think your instinct is right that calling, intending on folding to a shove behind, is better than shoving. When thinking about protection, it’s best to be as specific as possible. What hands, exactly, could shoving cause the Villain to fold and how much equity do they have against you? You have to weight that against the risk of putting the rest of your chips in dead, as happened here. With three players giving action on the flop, the risk of someone having a flush on the turn is pretty high.

I also think this should be a pre-flop re-raise 100% of the time. That’s really the spot where “protection” is of more relevance than the turn. Pre-flop, KK is not nearly as a huge of a favorite as it is against many hands on the turn, and it is easier to cause hands with good EV against you (including both live Aces but also “cracking” hands like small pairs and suited connectors) to fold.

It’s understandable to think that you want any and all action when you have a big pair, but that really is not the case. The hands you really want action from, like QQ/JJ/TT/AK/AQ, can stand up to a re-raise. And getting called by 55 or 76s or A4s isn’t really the great for you. You’re a modest favorite pre-flop, but after the flop nothing good happens against those hands. Mostly they either correctly fold or have you in a bad spot.

magpienath

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February 16, 2018 - 12:30 pm

Thanks for the response and insight!

I think i played the hand poorly on reflection. I was clearly tilting so came here to post about the hand for some feedback as I felt rightly the hand was misplayed and over played in this spot post flop. I guess for protection he may have a one pair hand with a Diamond so I think the risk I took was too ambitious. Hey we learn from our mistakes today and tomorrow is another day for tournaments!

Thanks for the response!

rajsesh

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February 19, 2018 - 1:29 pm

Not contesting 3b PF recommendation. This is my first post here, and wondering if my reasoning here makes sense:

Also, as played, what is the right course of action on the flop?

Plugging the ranges of 20% for UTG (broadways, suited a’s, poket pairs) and 25% for MP, holdeq shows 61% equity, even with the board. When I do adjust the c-bet and calling ranges based on the board and keep only semi bluffs and value hands, the equity drops to 39%.

Assuming that MP would have 3bet preflop with JJ+, and fold over pairs 77-TT on the flop if we raise, and ship with nut flush draws and sets, we are only 30%. If MP was a fish and would ship any over pair with nut flush draws, we are 60%. It gets closer to coin flip of there are a lot of other flush draws in his range.

As played, against any decent player, it looks like raise to 12BB on flop and fold to MP shove or call off UTG seems like the right play.

Thoughts?

@foucault – why do you think KK is only modest favorite pf? It usually at least 70% favorite, no? (and 61% is not a modest advantage either)

Foucault

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February 19, 2018 - 5:19 pm

@MontiiiP,

Let’s use the OP as an example. There are many hands that MP1 could call with where, even though we are an equity favorite against those hands, we’d still prefer that he fold them. This is in part because when he calls, he “takes” some of our equity share of the money already in the pot. There’s some price point where we’d prefer him to call (like, if he wants to cold call a 3bet with 76s, more power to him), but letting him call with 76s for 2.1bb is not going to be good for you, even when you have KK. The other problem is that 76s in position will probably play very well against our KK after the flop.

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