November 4, 2013
Good morning TPE,
I've been enjoying the recent threads and learning a lot from them.
Here was a situation that I'm pretty sure I played badly. I share a chiplead until this hand with a villain playing VPIP26 PFR 11, Limp 15, 3bet 10.4, c-bet 100 (good sample). If preflop was somehow ok, I know the turn action felt wrong and by the river I am just making a crying call.
Merge Network $250 Gtd – [+R, Turbo] No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t2500.00/t5000.00 Blinds + t500.00 – 8 players – View hand 2521836
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
dano8989 (BB): BB = 6.3, t31510
sheetsfizzle (UTG): BB = 7.5, t37319
swindler151aces (UTG+1): BB = 13.0, t65095
2wildncrazyguyz0912 (MP1): BB = 5.8, t28769
akaace14 (MP2): BB = 9.4, t47236
Hero (CO): BB = 15.2, t76058
pilot13 (BTN): BB = 15.5, t77700
zDONKz (SB): BB = 8.7, t43313
Pre Flop: (t11500) Hero is CO with 8 8
1 fold, swindler151aces calls t5000, 2 folds, Hero calls t5000, 2 folds, dano8989 checks
Flop: (t21500) 9 J 2 (3 players)
dano8989 checks, swindler151aces bets t5000.00, Hero calls t5000, dano8989 folds
Turn: (t31500) Q (2 players)
swindler151aces bets t5000.00, Hero raises to t10000.00, swindler151aces calls t5000
River: (t51500) 5 (2 players)
swindler151aces bets t5000.00, Hero calls t5000
Preflop I was doubting if this player is really going to liimp/fold at this stage. He does limp a lot, but that's throughout the tournaments, and I considered that he could be willing to call with many hands that are only slight underdogs against me, or inducing strong. I'm dominating only a small part of his range, it seems. Given this, I probably should have folded over limping yeah? But still the best move looks like a shove?
Once I limp, get this board and he min bets, I decide to float as he hasn't shown much strength, but I don't imagine many worse hands will call my raise. Admittedly, I was already getting lost. I couldn't put him on a range expect the stuff I eliminated when he didn't fold preflop.
On the turn when he min bets again, I was .. confused. Still couldn't narrow his range much, but it's obvious he can have some kind of hand. Would this have been a reason to raise on the flop or to raise bigger on the turn, like 16000, put some pressure on him, and fold if he shoves?
I don't know why I was so passive here. I click raise, basically intending to get to a showdown and keep him from bluffing me on the river with misses (of which I see there are few). But if I wanted a showdown, I really should have just called the turn.
And of course I have to call the min bet on the river.
My initial analysis is that I should have folded or shoved preflop.
Any comments are most appreciated.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
This is a very clear shove preflop. I don't want to be unnecessarily critical but limping behind with 88 is just not an option here, it's pretty bad. Limping behind with any hand when you're only 13bb effective isn't really an option in any spot, tbh.
I can see why you did it – there are a lot of short stacks at the table and with your 15bb stack, you're almost chip leader. However, this is a spot where the original limper is going to fold far too often, and it's unlikely he has a stronger hand very often. 88 is just too strong not to shove here. You get such a high % of folds from everyone, including the limper, and 88 has great equity when called.
It's a closer spot with something like 22 – in a lot of spots 22 would be a fine hand to shove over a weak limper like this without a read that he's a little stronger, and he'd have to fold a huge percentage of his range because of ICM. However, this is a spot where an ICM mistake by the limper could actually end up redistributing some of our own equity around the table, so I think it would be understandable to fold some smaller pairs here, especially if we think the limper is slowplaying reasonably often. But even if we do think he's slowplaying a lot here, limping just isn't an option, we're not deep enough.
EDIT: Incidentally, if you have a villain showing exactly 100% cbet, then I think it's very, very unlikely that you have a 'good sample' of hands on him.
November 4, 2013
Thanks very much for both of your responses.
I could tell that I played this hand poorly and looking back I think I was worried too much about the UTG guy trapping, which is a leak I’'ve been at battle with for a while. Also I definitely made an uncharacteristic move by limping here. It’s funny how sometimes to learn and truly understand a concept or general rule (like starting to push/fold at 10-15BB) we have to stumble with it a while (at least I do), thinking certain situations are exceptions to the general rule, screwing up on them, and then learning, no, that was not an exception – I should have followed the general rule. In this case I think it happens because there are actually exceptions, but probably less than I think.
theginger, not to worry. Your criticism is well asked for, particularly in this thread and it is not unneccessary. I almost put the words “grill me” in the title, but figured it would appropriately happen anyway.
Plus, you actually provide useful feedback, avoid name calling and show evidence of actually reading full threads. I did leave one training site due to members being disrespectful, and I noticed a difference at TPE almost immediately.
This villain had 100% cbets after n=460 .. I know it’s not an amazing sample, but it’s enough for consideration yeah? I guess I should remember that a few hundred hands is not actually “good” – maybe more just “ok for a start.”
Cheers, I hope everyone is feeling good!
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