November 18, 2014
I’m always cbeting on this spot. Not because I don’t agree with what you are saying but because against these kind of players my experience is they play any two and then the moment you show weakness they become very aggressive. If he calls or raises you can slow down. He’s not raising with worse and he’ll probably check, check if he doesn’t have a 7, Q or K and you can get your hand to showdown. If he folds then great, you’ve won 9BB
For some hands you can take advantage of that but TT is way to vulnerable (from my point of view). If you check and he decides to bet as he has you are going to be very uncomfortable. I prefer to cbet and discover straight away where I am on the hand. He may call you down with hands like small pocket pairs too… What I don’t really like to do (again, against these kind of players) is to check behind because then they go crazy with or without a hand and start beting which is something I don’t want in this flop. I his mind it goes like “he checks the flop, he has nothing”…
As played I would fold the river and keep my 10 blinds to try to come back.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
chaos said
against these kind of players my experience is they play any two and then the moment you show weakness they become very aggressive.
That sounds like a reason to check to me. I mean, if you really think your opponent will bet “any two” on the turn, that’s pretty great for you, even though you’ll sometimes be beat.
I don’t necessarily think that’s true, but I still think he’ll bluff often enough to make checking better than betting (with the plan to fold on particularly bad turn cards).
Hero has an SPR of 1.5 on the flop, so we need to be thinking about commitment. We shouldn’t be trying to “find out where we’re at” or other such silliness, we should be thinking “I’m going to put the money in, what’s the best way to do that?”. I think it’s checking back flop and then shoving over a turn bet unless the turn is an A, K, or J. A small bet on the flop is also an option.
November 18, 2014
Andrew, I don’t particularly like trapping random players because the results are usually random. The fact is a player that is flat calling a raise to 4BB with 26 bigs either has a monster or has no idea what he’s doing. With 14BB left I’m not too interested in trapping the guy.
I’d rather put out a cbet of 1/3 of the pot and get him to fold hands that I’m beating but can improve to beat me on a spot where I’m going to have a very difficult time folding and, given his range, I’m not going to be sure if I had the best hand when I folded.
If we check and then shove over on the turn…. we are trading an additional 5BB (as he’s not calling without the best hand) for our whole stack. That is, we wait for the turn to turn our hand into a bluff… I’m sorry but I don’t see how that makes sense… We will either lose and be out of the tourney or end up having won 14BB which is great but not that much more than 9 extra BB by cbeting on the flop. Maybe it’s just a lower variance route…
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
You’re seeing the flop with an SPR of 1.5. Barring a bad turn card, the money should be going in no matter what. You said that you expected V to bet “any two cards” if Hero checks the flop. That means we gain 5BB when he doesn’t improve and lose 15BB when he does. There is no hand that will improve anywhere near 1/3 of the time on the turn, and especially given that we can avoid losing that 15BB on the worst turn cards (at the price of occasionally getting bluffed), checking the flop will be very profitable given your assumptions. Yes, there’s some randomness involved. This is poker, it’s a gambling game, you need to stop looking for sure things and start thinking in terms of EV.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
Yes. If I didn’t expect much aggression from V, then I’m probably just make a small bet on the flop and call a check-shove if it came to that. It’s important to be clear that you are betting for value, with the intention of getting it in, though – not for “information” with the intention of folding later.
December 30, 2015
I’m not sure I understand the flop check either. KQ and AQ are in our range PF so why not turn our under-pair in to a bluff and bet when we are expected to?I’m also betting with any made hand and a flush draw. If called then a side effect is more information (to “find out where we’re at”), but that isn’t the primary reason for betting IMO.
Here is where you are challenging my thinking though…Lets say I C-bet and V calls. I think he likely has either a 7, Q, under-pair or flush draw. Now I’m on the turn with the betting lead and I probably get the chance to check through, but then I let the draws get a free card and ALL of these hands could bet the river, so that seems bad. If I bet the turn, a flush draw and maybe a weak Q (doubtful) may or may not fold and V may still bet all of these hands on the river. Perhaps some turn aggression may cause all hands to check hoping to c/r, so we get to check behind. Or perhaps it suppresses thin value bets from all but trips, making a river call more profitable? This is why betting to keep control seems attractive to me. It seems like V has to play more straightforward or cause a blocking-bet-effect as a form of pot control. I could be betting 40% pot on both streets rather than calling larger bets? If V ever comes over the top (more likely on the turn with trips), then I can fold. I feel like this ends up cheaper. Crazy-talk?
Back to this hand….
If I have a read that villain is floating a lot, then I might think twice about a c-bet. However, V is a limper. I find limpers tend to be careful post flop unless they hit something with decent equity…passive in confrontation but not necessarily passive when they think they have a shot at the pot, if that makes sense. So V is a limper, maybe not position aware, and is probably calling the majority of a wide opening range, so maybe something like most suited connectors to two-gappers, K9s, KT+, 22+? A lot of these give up on the flop but 7s shouldn’t be discounted like they might be if the pot was more of a standard 3-bet situation.
I think V’s line, as played, looks a lot like a failed c/r attempt on the flop and value all the way down with trips or AQ.
If we assume my read is perfect (hah), then here is how I think the cost goes:
1. As played, assuming fold on river = -18500 (I think?)
2. If c-bet 4150 on flop and action goes c/r/fold = -8250
3. If c-bet 4150 on flop and c/c and bet turn 8225 = -16475 (V may c/r here, lead river or we check-check river)
…of course my read could be wrong and V could have folded to the c-bet where we could argue missed value but at least we won. I think #3 is the most informative line and we may still get to showdown more cheaply than as-played with a few chances to win.
WDYT of all of this? Please pick it apart so I can test my thinking as a student here.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
MovieFX said
I’m not sure I understand the flop check either. KQ and AQ are in our range PF so why not turn our under-pair in to a bluff and bet when we are expected to?
Because better hands won’t fold, which is a pretty important element of a profitable bluff. Check out my Bluffing series for more on choosing good candidates for bluffing.
Here is where you are challenging my thinking though…Lets say I C-bet and V calls. I think he likely has either a 7, Q, under-pair or flush draw. Now I’m on the turn with the betting lead and I probably get the chance to check through, but then I let the draws get a free card and ALL of these hands could bet the river, so that seems bad. If I bet the turn, a flush draw and maybe a weak Q (doubtful) may or may not fold and V may still bet all of these hands on the river. Perhaps some turn aggression may cause all hands to check hoping to c/r, so we get to check behind. Or perhaps it suppresses thin value bets from all but trips, making a river call more profitable? This is why betting to keep control seems attractive to me. It seems like V has to play more straightforward or cause a blocking-bet-effect as a form of pot control. I could be betting 40% pot on both streets rather than calling larger bets? If V ever comes over the top (more likely on the turn with trips), then I can fold. I feel like this ends up cheaper. Crazy-talk?
Yep, pretty much :-). Take a look at your equity vs that range that you assigned Villain for seeing this flop, and consider how rarely he has a hand better than TT. With an SPR of 1.5, your hand is much too strong to be thinking about bet-folding on the flop and you really shouldn’t be thinking in terms of how to avoid paying off. It may not feel like it, but you have a value hand here, and you should be thinking about how to put money in from ahead. Unless the turn dramatically changes things, you should be going to the felt with this hand, which means that you WANT your opponent in there betting weaker hands, because when he has better he is going to get paid anyway. Of course you’ll be beat rather often when the money goes in, but there’s nothing you can do about that. As you are kind of recognizing, any line that involves folding later likely involves too high a risk of folding the best hand. The pot is large relative to your stack, and you’re just going to have to stack off with some hands that aren’t as strong as you’d like. Accept that, and make the most of it.
Most Users Ever Online: 2780
Currently Online:
13 Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
bennymacca: 2616
Foucault: 2067
folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133
praetor: 1033
theginger45: 924
P-aire 146: 832
Turbulence: 768
The Riceman: 731
duggs: 591
florianm1: 588
Newest Members:
Tillery999
sdmathis89
ne0x00
adrianvaida2525
Anteeater
Laggro
Forum Stats:
Groups: 4
Forums: 24
Topics: 12705
Posts: 75003
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1063
Members: 12008
Moderators: 2
Admins: 5
Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos
Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1