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This was FT $69 40k at 7PM ET with about 35 left from 800+ field. Villain was 20/12 in 49 hands, 3 betting at 6% so he wasn't the most passive guy around , but he wasn't very aggressive either. My numbers were 17/13 7% 3 bet for the mtt.
His limp kind of threw me off here – I didn't remember him limping much.
His limping range consisted more of KJ, QJ, JTs type hands than sm pp's i thought, a few hi/low suited hands someimes, and then monsters the rest times. I think this player opens for a raise with sm pp's considering his stack. At game time I weighted big pp's being in his range a larger % of the time than later when I looked at his numbers more closely though.
I find playing my stack of 27 bbs or so at this stage of the mtt a bit tricky. Sometimes I'm not sure to gamble it up a bit to try to get to a raise/fold stack, or be conservative and wait for better ev spot. Plus his stack leaves him a bit more room to maneuver. I do have position, but my stack is very vulnerable to ch/r if I raised pre and made a cbet after he ch'd it to me.
Full Tilt Poker No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t800.00/t1600.00 Blinds – 9 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
SB: t84422.00 52.76 BBs
BB: t36914.00 23.07 BBs
UTG: t61379.00 38.36 BBs
UTG+1: t10207.00 6.38 BBs
UTG+2: t23995.00 15.00 BBs
MP1: t23277.00 14.55 BBs
MP2: t29126.00 18.20 BBs
Hero (CO): t44503.00 27.81 BBs
BTN: t11875.00 7.42 BBs
Pre Flop: (t2400) Hero is CO with T
T
UTG calls t1600, 4 folds, Hero…
This is one that to me it has no clear answer, here are some thoughts though:
With tens and considering that there is a 7 bbs stack to act after you, i would be assuming that is the minimun that entering this hand would cost me. With that in mind, its either fold, 3bet to 7 bbs or so or 3bet shove. I get that its unlikely you would be dominating him here based on your assesed range but you are still a slight favorite against all his broadways and 60% or better against most others, if he has JJ+ good game to him, you are in the money but far from the big money, so I would probably 3bet to 7 bbs, i think this looks very strong, fold to multiple shoves if they occur, call single shoves, call this guys shove (you might not call him if you feel he is only 4betting monsters, did yoy have any info on his 3bet call%?) and if called, reassess based on the flop.
Tough spot, but i think TT on the CO you would be opening 100% of the time, so is just one limp going to make you release it?
The 3bet shove obv brings in the benefit of possibly making him fold some broadways you might be flipping with but 3 23+ stacks to go that might wake up with a hand i dont know.
I hope this helps, the more i think about it the less clear i am about which option is best
July 3, 2010
Offline
Just shove and collect 4k.
If you ISO raise are you going to fold on your chip stack? Plus people just flat way too much these days. If you're coolered you're probably iso raise/calling so just jam and max out your FE. TT isn't that great postflop anyway.
The button might call light but who cares? Everyone else needs a really strong hand to call.
I'd raise/Fd to 3bet w these stack sizes and range you but on villain. By open/folding you still have a good resteal stack and if you get called you are in position post which gives you more options.
I know I'm going to get some disagreement with openin size here but, I would make a big open. I'd open to 4x to give worse calling odds to the limper and to encourage him to shove his trapping hands.
If he still flats, I dn't think you need to c-bet every flop here. When it comes two or three broadways you can just check back and when it comes one or less take one stab at it.
This will give you two high % ways to win the hand (getting a fold pre/getting a fold on lower boards) while minimizing the chances of you getting trapped or ck/raised on the flop. It also gives you room to still resteal w some f/e when you lose.
July 3, 2010
Offline
I don't think 4X/folding is ever good here. Look at the villain's stats… limping AA might be there a small percent of the time. The rest of the time it's probably stuff we're flipping against and don't want to take a flop against since the overcards come a lot.
If we 4X, stab once and fail we just screwed ourselves. I don't think it's a good idea at all to try this.
Op's read was there was a decent chance he had a monster. I'm making it 4x cause I think we get a much higer % of folds pre than if we make it 3x.
Just because a guy is 20/12 doesn't mean he is limping 20% of his hands utg. If he was than I agree a shove is fine. but if OP's range is correct 4x is going to get close to as many folds pre as a shove will, but will keep him out of trouble against the AA-KK (if we are giving that extra weight)
The limper called 1 3 bet in the limited sample
Sitngo wiz, believe it or not, shows this to be a slight -ev shove. I plugged in the numbers in another re-shove spreadsheet, treating the limper as if he openend with a raise, and used a 15% limping range, which is debatable, and a call to a shove range of 4% and it came back being a profitable shove of almost 2k in chips. So I would think shoving here is probably not optimal.
This was a 'what the hell do I do here' spot for me and I just flatted – something I would rarely do with this stack and at this stage.
The flop, I think, crushes his limping range to at least having strong draws, and his lead bet sizing maybe hinted of protecting AA or KK, I thought.
The reason this hand bugged me is I wonder if most winning mtt would ever play this hand as passively here. Lately, I'm seeing plays by top players in important spots that just seem like pure spew. I'm starting to think that maybe you have to have that 'do or die' mentality to be successfull these days.
Full Tilt Poker No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t800.00/t1600.00 Blinds – 9 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
SB: t84422.00 52.76 BBs
BB: t36914.00 23.07 BBs
UTG: t61379.00 38.36 BBs
UTG+1: t10207.00 6.38 BBs
UTG+2: t23995.00 15.00 BBs
MP1: t23277.00 14.55 BBs
MP2: t29126.00 18.20 BBs
Hero (CO): t44503.00 27.81 BBs
BTN: t11875.00 7.42 BBs
Pre Flop: (t2400) Hero is CO with T T
UTG calls t1600, 4 folds, Hero calls t1600, 1 fold, SB calls t800, BB checks
Flop: (t6400) 9
Q
6 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets t4800.00, Hero folds, SB folds, BB folds
do not shove PF. i am not at all surprised that sngw shows it to be -EV. raising and limping behind are both acceptible. not a tough spot at all if you get limp/rr, as you should just fold. you don't even have to raise to 4x, you could go 3-3.5x.
shoving 44k to win 4k is terrible risk vs. reward considering that when we win it's almost always just the blinds+antes+limp and when we get called our whole stack is in the middle with 20% equity.
i think i prefer to isolate pf so as to better define UTG's range and get the pot headsup.
as played i think the flop is a fold, too.
i misread villain's stats. definitely don't limp behind here. raise to 3-3.5x and go from there. don't worry about a limp/rr as he'll only be doing it with very strong hands. just because someone has a wide range to limp does not mean that they have a wide range to limp/rr.
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