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TPTK WITH AK?
folding_aces_pre_yo
High Stakes Mario Kart Propping
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September 3, 2019 - 2:33 pm
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#Game No : 1113635662
***** 888poker Hand History for Game 1113635662 *****
125/250 Blinds No Limit Holdem – ***
Tournament #143125892 $15 + $1.50 – Table #10 9 Max (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: atjip ( 50,625 )
Seat 2: Juggerz19 ( 51,322 )
Seat 3: MicutuP.K.R. ( 50,000 )
Seat 4: Yl0sErAnYWaY ( 49,105 )
Seat 5: Eye_Sea_Emm ( 49,845 )
Seat 6: TurkeyJurkey ( 55,300 )
Seat 7: london_ace ( 48,033 )
Seat 9: U_In_My_Arms ( 49,355 )
Seat 10: BL1NDRAZOR ( 46,415 )
MicutuP.K.R. posts ante [30]
london_ace posts ante [30]
atjip posts ante [30]
Yl0sErAnYWaY posts ante [30]
U_In_My_Arms posts ante [30]
BL1NDRAZOR posts ante [30]
Juggerz19 posts ante [30]
Eye_Sea_Emm posts ante [30]
TurkeyJurkey posts ante [30]
TurkeyJurkey posts small blind [125]
london_ace posts big blind [250]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to london_ace [ Kh, Ac ]
U_In_My_Arms folds
BL1NDRAZOR folds
atjip folds
Juggerz19 raises [500]
MicutuP.K.R. folds
Yl0sErAnYWaY folds
Eye_Sea_Emm folds
TurkeyJurkey folds
london_ace raises [1,700]
Juggerz19 calls [1,450]
** Dealing flop ** [ 8s, Ks, 2s ]   ($4295)
london_ace checks
Juggerz19 checks
** Dealing turn ** [ Ad ]    ($4295)
london_ace bets [2,147]
Juggerz19 calls [2,147]
** Dealing river ** [ Ts ]  $8589
london_ace checks
Juggerz19 bets [5,000]
london_ace calls [5,000]
** Summary **
Juggerz19 shows [ 5h, Ah ]
london_ace shows [ Kh, Ac ]
london_ace collected [ 18,589 ]

Ive only played one pot with v which he won without getting to a showndown , hero raised from MP1 and V called from BTN , hero bet flop and V raised, hero folds.

When I look at this flop , I am thinking that our value target is Kx, 8x , secondary value targets would be flush draws. My plan was to c/c. Now the reason why I checked was because I felt he is going to raise me again just like in the previous pot. I don’t really want to build a big pot with TPTP when stacks are so deep but at the same time  I think b/c and re-evaluating turn would be best because we want to bet our hand for value and protection on this board and I guess we can call all the way if the flush does not complete by the river? 

is there more merit for b/c or c/c flop against this particular opponent?

 

thanks. 

Foucault

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September 3, 2019 - 3:37 pm
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Play is fine up until river, close between bet or check flop. River is an easy fold though, you got lucky that he bluffed with a hand he should not have.

DuckinDaDeck
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September 3, 2019 - 4:14 pm
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I think the line you took postflop is excellent. We really don’t want to build a pot or even think about protection on the flop, the only hands which might be worth folding out are low spades and villain should have a lot less of those than medium to high spades. Getting value from draws is great but there are enough hands better than ours that it becomes pretty thin, not to mention hands that can put us in a really tough spot with a bluff-raise (even before considering your read on villain). It’s difficult to pot control out of position, but we can still increase our chance of reaching showdown with our marginal hand by not giving the villain a raising opportunity.

Leading the turn looks good and I’d probably consider it on a lot of relatively blank cards too, offsuit 9 and 7-3 being the most likely candidates. Both players’ ranges are weaker after the flop checks through, so I think TPTK is strong enough to start looking for value.

There aren’t many river situations where I prefer to check/call for value instead of bet/fold but this is a good example of one. There are a few 2 pairs we may miss value from when they check back, but I can’t imagine how we win often enough when called. Once we check, I think spades are the cards most likely to be over-bluffed. Obviously, we’re paying off flushes a good portion of the time, but I think we’re winning more often than we need to vs. most players to justify calling an even larger bet than 3/5 pot.

I will make two comments on sizing:

– Your preflop 3bet should be much larger out of position at nearly 200bb deep. Even 4.5x (2250) would be on the small side, but reasonable. I think I’d be looking to 5x (maybe even 6x vs a min-raise) at these stack depths.

– Based on the hands you’ve posted recently, it seems like you are almost exclusively betting 1/2 pot postflop. This is not a problem per se, and definitely not a priority to work on as you’ve only recently returned to playing regularly but, while reviewing hands, you may want to think about how certain board textures could benefit from varying your sizing. Not remotely connected to this hand, just wanted to mention that in general.

 

EDIT: Uh-oh, I am probably wrong if Andrew disagrees with me, time to put on my thinking cap.

The Riceman
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September 3, 2019 - 4:51 pm
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DDD said,

EDIT: Uh-oh, I am probably wrong if Andrew disagrees with me, time to put on my thinking cap.”

Absolutely not necessarily true. Almost always true in my case, though again not always. Andrew deserves much respect as a poker mind…but he is not god.

Edit: I see you said “probably”, which I missed. I am just on a mission to try to stop the deification of Andrew in poker. Not that I don’t love him and see him as a genius, because I do…just that, well, as I said, he isn’t god. FWIW I think a great deal of your poker mind too DDD.

Edit2: because in fact it is I who is the true poker deity, I shall consider the hand in question tomorrow, and both yourself and Andrew can drink from the cup of my knowledge smile

folding_aces_pre_yo
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September 3, 2019 - 6:42 pm
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thanks for the feedback guys! 

DuckinDaDeck
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September 3, 2019 - 11:54 pm
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Lol Riceman, you’re the best. heartheartheart

Still thinking about this hand, muddled for now. I’ve been seeing a lot of range charts and flopzilla breakdowns in my dreams lately, so I may have fresh insight in the morning.

Maniackid11
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September 4, 2019 - 7:18 am
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DuckinDaDeck said
Lol Riceman, you’re the best. heartheartheart

Still thinking about this hand, muddled for now. I’ve been seeing a lot of range charts and flopzilla breakdowns in my dreams lately, so I may have fresh insight in the morning.  

That’s awesome dude! There was a week straight that I would wake up from a dream about Flopzilla breakdowns. And I agree with The Riceman about valuing your opinions, keep up the good work.

Foucault

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September 4, 2019 - 8:37 am
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DuckinDaDeck said

There aren’t many river situations where I prefer to check/call for value instead of bet/fold but this is a good example of one. There are a few 2 pairs we may miss value from when they check back, but I can’t imagine how we win often enough when called. Once we check, I think spades are the cards most likely to be over-bluffed. Obviously, we’re paying off flushes a good portion of the time, but I think we’re winning more often than we need to vs. most players to justify calling an even larger bet than 3/5 pot.

 

EDIT: Uh-oh, I am probably wrong if Andrew disagrees with me, time to put on my thinking cap.  

Very good post. I understand that in this case Villain did in fact turn a pair into a bluff (when he should not have), but I found that to be a surprising result. What are the hands you’d expect to call turn and then bluff this river? Especially given that we block Kx?

DuckinDaDeck
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September 4, 2019 - 11:09 am
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I think my reasoning was based on a number of assumptions, none of which are concrete. Namely:

1. Both players’ ranges (especially the preflop caller) are heavily weighted to suited combos and pairs

2. Neither player is checking the flop with a made flush

3. We aren’t betting QsQx and JsJx on the turn

4. We are value betting the river with all of our As combos and at least some Qs combos

5. The villain is not value-betting hands weaker than 9s x

I’m moving slowly this morning and I’m out of time to finish this but, if we buy into those assumptions, you might see why I actually think Ax weak kicker is a somewhat reasonable bluff. Obviously, those assumptions are of varying reliability and especially #2 is fairly dubious. I’ll try to follow up later today.

folding_aces_pre_yo
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September 7, 2019 - 5:40 am
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@ andrew , I think 2x 98s and 78s could call turn and try to bluff river…not many hands really that i can see v calling turn and bluffing river

If we more short stacked lets say with 50bb wud u be more inclined to gii with tptk? Personally i would. 

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