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TPTK (AQ) on dangerous board - bet to protect hand and cbets or check/keep pot small and evaluate?
derSchwartz
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October 10, 2014 - 6:27 pm
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This spot reminds me of a few others I remember in recent months.  This is a simple 11$ 6max turbo SnG. Villain is rll5454 No postflop information – he's opening 38/13 and open limping 25% after just 16 hands.  He hasn't done any 3betting or reraising yet.

t15.00/t30.00 Blinds – 6 players – View hand 2590259
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

chubby13 (BtN): t1310.00 43.67 BBs
rll5454 (SB): t1780.00 59.33 BBs
xAugustWestx (BB): t838.00 27.93 BBs
Hoosiers23 (UTG): t1760.00 58.67 BBs
Hero (UTG+1): t1495.00 49.83 BBs
Ronbonious (CO): t1817.00 60.57 BBs

Pre Flop: (t45) Hero is with Q of spades A of clubs
1 fold, Hero raises to t90.00, 2 folds, rll5454 calls t75, 1 fold

Interesting flat.  A problem is I don't know much about him and don't know what he's doing with his decent range.  He could be flatting a lot of it yeah?  But this early he may not have had a decent chence to 3bet so I'm still assuming he has a preflop raise range.  How do you range someone this early, when you are not sure if he's flatting or 3betting a large bulk of his decent hands?

Flop: (t210) A of hearts K of hearts T of clubs (2 players)
rll5454 checks,  

Not my favorite board.  I don't want to give a free card, so maybe I should bet.  A question I have is do I want to bet for the additional reason of protecting my Cbets here?  However, the pot is small, it's early, and I'm uncertain of the villains range.  Should I keep the pot small and proceed cautiosly?

Hero bets t120.00, rll5454 raises to t600.00.

Pot is 930 and I have to call 480.  I think I am beat here.  He must have flatted something decent?

Hero?

How is the flop Cbet?  I feel if I do it I'm protecting my Cbets, taking down an early pot when he has nothing and losing only a Cbet when he shows real strength.  But I feel like I'm rarely getting any more value from anything except AJ (as many draws will be combo draws) and the only way to profit bigger than t210 from this hand is by getting worse hands to bet.

Thanks for reading.

huge
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October 11, 2014 - 2:03 am
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This is a situation I don't handle well – ie I usually bet and then throw up in my mouth when I get check-raised because I didn't properly make a plan.  Having said that, maybe it's a good spot to just check behind.  Sure you don't want to give a free card, but against the hands that you *really* don't want to give a free card to, like JhTh etc, they're probably going to checkraise you anyway, likely getting you to fold the best hand.  When you're way ahead (vs weak Aces played stupidly by a bad player) you probably get more value by checking the flop and either betting turn&river or playing the hand as a bluff-catcher. 

 

Like I said, I suck in that spot, so take my reply with a grain of salt.

Nervous Mike
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October 11, 2014 - 7:35 am
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Hi, interesting! The play the villain does is the same play I did post in another thread here. And you kind of response to my question with this thread and how you can react.

I’m in no way a pro or anything, and sometimes my thoughts are very strange, sometimes bad, and sometimes out of the box I would say. With your hand on that kind of flop, there is a possibility to check for information… I will try to explain.

Ok Step 1 in my thinking.
He flat pre. He can have about anything, I mostly put him on suited connectors, broadways, some small pocket pairs. As you got an A, he is less likely to have an A, if he got an A he can have 2 pair pretty easy here. And you are beat already, but you do have a backdoor for the straight. He expects a cbet 100% of the time on this kind of board. He raise your bet for information. He can simply have a K, (none heart), maybe a T, (can be a heart for the flushdraw too) or pure air. If he is playing with confidence and recently won pots he can think to himself. “Ok, he cbet, I expect that. Let’s see if he got an A and check raise.”

Now, Step 2 in my thinking.
You say it’s not your favorite board. But you still flopped decent, still if you think it’s not your favorite board the villain must think the same unless he really smashed it with QJhh for example (also less likely as you have the Q blocker). Now it gets a bit tricky. I think most player would check QJhh or flopped trips on this board (still this is possible hands but less common). To keep your full range in. But they would also check air and none made hands. And probably smaller pocket pairs gets a check too.

Your move? Now it gets cheaper to call if he wants to donklead, to see the turn card. As he probably bets smaller than your cbet + his check raise.

This way you can get more information for a cheaper price. You get to see the turn and can evaluate depending on his next move.

Here on the turn you have 2 options depending on what he does.
1. He checks. Do you wanna lead on the turn? What does this achieve? You fold out all his bluffs. And when beat we loose chips. We still can bet and protect our hand from draws.
2. We can check behind and for the same reason as on the flop. He can either take a free card, bluff river, or think his worse 1 pair hands is good and want to get cheap to river.

If he check, I think this indicate that he got some kind of showdown value, but is uncertain of the strength of his hand and is glad to just check it down.

If he bets. And depending on size. Time to figure out if he does this as we shown weakness or if he got a monster and try to start build the pot. We can still call if he bet as we got decent showdown. The option is also to fold if you really feel he got you beat.

This brings us to the river. Depending on river card and how the turn and river connects with both the board and his pre flop flat range you need to put it all together. If he checks, I’m happy to check it behind for pot control. No reason to not just check behind and see his cards, to get the opportunity to put notes on him.

If he leads, you really gotta ask yourself if AQo, 1 pair is good enough?

I’m not sure if you got any wiser. But this is how I think about the hand. I’m in no way a pro player. But it would be nice if someone can comment on my thinking and see if it’s totaly wrong and open me up for seeing things in a different ways.

Foucault

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October 11, 2014 - 12:28 pm
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There's nothing wrong with just betting and folding to a raise here. You are probably drawing slim against his check-raising range, so you really haven't cost yourself much by not getting to see the turn. There are plenty of second-best hands that will call a flop bet, and I don't think you really get check-raised much on this board because it's a better flop for your range than for his (note that this doesn't require a lot of assumptions about his flatting range, just that he's more likely 3bet AA/KK/AK whereas you have all of those in your range). Frankly this feels results-oriented to me. I mean of course if you know he's going to check-raise you'd like to check behind but I don't think it happens that much and there's a lot of value in betting, not just for protection or protecting your cbets but just straight up for value to get called by Kx, worse Ax, draws, etc.

derSchwartz
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October 12, 2014 - 1:00 am
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Thanks NervousMike for your in depth thought process.  I don't think checking the flop here is bad but I opted to Cbet and still prefer it. As far as getting information goes, I think betting gets more information about the villians hand than checking – at least here.  Checking gets the free card but I feel puts us later in the hand with still not much information about villain's range.

Foucault, I appreciate hearing that I'm being results oriented here – that's a pretty good read I must say.  Until now I had only thought about being “results oriented” with respect to the way cards go down and pots are won .. now you have helped me realize that I was overly concerned about the fact that this time the villain re-raised.

topherloaf
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October 12, 2014 - 8:41 pm
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Lately(in MTTs) on super drawy boards I've been experimenting with checking what we can not unsafely assume is the best hand.  Statistically more often than not the turn is a whiff and 1) draws tend not to go so crazy knowing they only have one card and 2) you can easily turn your hand into what it is on this board, a bluff catcher, and get value.  However, considering the format, I like the bet/fold too.  

theginger45

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October 13, 2014 - 8:27 am
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It seems like a lot of your thought process is clouded by things that obscure the central issue in the hand – things like “he must have flatted something decent” don't really answer the question of what the villain's range actually is. Start with his preflop range, narrow it down according to his actions, and proceed accordingly.

 

As played, given the size of his raise, I think bet/fold is probably fine.

NeverAA
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October 13, 2014 - 12:37 pm
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I used to be stubborn with my good hands, or what I perceive as good hands. But came to realize any good hand that is second best is no good. The pros and forums on this site helped a lot understanding this fact.

Coming to the hand, I also think that betting gives us more information here. I would have called up to 2.5x, but 5x just doesnt justify. Even knowing he is behind most of the time, it just isnt woth committing the rest of the stack because it looks like this is whats gonna happen and he will most prob not be such an underdog with most prob a flush draw, straight draw and worst case scenario he may even have a pair to go with them so his 2 pair may also beat us. No harm in dropping 7bb's here and  looking for a better spot in my opinion pretty early in the tournament.

derSchwartz
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October 13, 2014 - 12:55 pm
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Ginger, I kind of see what you mean when you say my thought ‘he must have flatted something decent’ clouds the central issue – but I also think I didn’t post clearly enough about how I ranged him. Of course I wasn’t ranging him well enough.

When posting hands I should get better at actually typing down the specific ranges I am putting villains on, but in this case one of my problems was I honestly couldn’t eliminate much from villain’s range preflop except the very worst holdings. I knew premiums were less likely but they weren’t eliminated. So by the flop I was trying to narrow him down (while trying to win a pot) and I feel I did manage to do that by the time he raised me because by then it seemed like his range was in fact narrow, thus ‘he must have flatted something decent’

Is this a decent explanation for that thought process and I just have to get better at assigning ranges? Or do you think I should really figure out how to get rid of the way I thought about this hand?

Thanks for your response regardless. I always appreciate your input.

MovesLikeDarvin

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October 14, 2014 - 9:18 pm
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derSchwartz said:

This spot reminds me of a few others I remember in recent months.  This is a simple 11$ 6max turbo SnG. Villain is rll5454 No postflop information – he's opening 38/13 and open limping 25% after just 16 hands.  He hasn't done any 3betting or reraising yet.

t15.00/t30.00 Blinds – 6 players – View hand 2590259
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

chubby13 (BtN): t1310.00 43.67 BBs
rll5454 (SB): t1780.00 59.33 BBs
xAugustWestx (BB): t838.00 27.93 BBs
Hoosiers23 (UTG): t1760.00 58.67 BBs
Hero (UTG+1): t1495.00 49.83 BBs
Ronbonious (CO): t1817.00 60.57 BBs

Pre Flop: (t45) Hero is with Q of spades A of clubs
1 fold, Hero raises to t90.00, 2 folds, rll5454 calls t75, 1 fold

Interesting flat.  A problem is I don't know much about him and don't know what he's doing with his decent range.  He could be flatting a lot of it yeah?  But this early he may not have had a decent chence to 3bet so I'm still assuming he has a preflop raise range.  How do you range someone this early, when you are not sure if he's flatting or 3betting a large bulk of his decent hands?

Flop: (t210) A of hearts K of hearts T of clubs (2 players)
rll5454 checks,  

Not my favorite board.  I don't want to give a free card, so maybe I should bet.  A question I have is do I want to bet for the additional reason of protecting my Cbets here?  However, the pot is small, it's early, and I'm uncertain of the villains range.  Should I keep the pot small and proceed cautiosly?

Hero bets t120.00, rll5454 raises to t600.00.

Pot is 930 and I have to call 480.  I think I am beat here.  He must have flatted something decent?

Hero?

How is the flop Cbet?  I feel if I do it I'm protecting my Cbets, taking down an early pot when he has nothing and losing only a Cbet when he shows real strength.  But I feel like I'm rarely getting any more value from anything except AJ (as many draws will be combo draws) and the only way to profit bigger than t210 from this hand is by getting worse hands to bet.

Thanks for reading.

first of all—great post and even better title! for my money i wish more people posted in this format. it really poses the question nicely and guides you on what to look for while youre reading the HH.

 

this early, and without all the preflop info and tendencies on your opponent that you have demonstrated, i wouldnt concern myself too much with “could he have flatted something good here?” he seems to be playing pretty actively, so my “slight” initial read might be that he is fishier than average, but aside from that we dont know too much. as such, id play your hand a little more straightforwardly, and stick to worrying about how to get the most value for your hand with the least risk. with this in mind, it appears that betting and then folding to the (unexpected) check-raise is your best play. if we treat this player as weaker-than-average based on (very limited) preflop stats already, i would suspect that his check/raise means strength more often than a bluff. 

 

tl;dr: you played your hand fine, but (as ginger and foucault pointed out before) you might be focusing too hard on the wrong aspects of the hand.

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