View Plans & Pricing

If you are signed in and are seeing this message, please be sure you have selected a user name in My Profile. The forum requires it.
A A A
Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
sp_TopicIcon
Top pair facing large flop raise
PlasticPearl
Grinding Micros
Members
Forum Posts: 46
Member Since:
April 6, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
May 24, 2015 - 5:15 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory
0

This was played in a $3 on 888. 90 remaining, 40 get paid, I am in 18th. Stacks are shallow and generally the big stacks have been avoiding each other and picking off the shorties. No HUD stats on villain but seems a typical tight aggressive and nothing unusual to report. If anyone is paying attention to my image I have been active: over 68 hands I have won 6 out of 7 showdowns, and another 10 pots without a showdown. So 16 pots out of 68 at a full ring table.

 

I start the hand with 21000 in UTG+1, we are at 250/500. I have KdTs and make it 1,055. Villain is in the big blind with 15000 and flats. I don't think he will be flatting me super wide given my position. I am assuming all broadways, pocket pairs up to TT, maybe 76s+.

 

Flop comes 2dTd9c. I cbet 1255, and villain raises to 6605. Pretty big re-raise. I assume I either have to shove or fold here, as villain has indicated he wants to play for stacks now half his money in the middle – or at least that is what he wants me to think.

 

Thinking about how Foucault categorises range reading (monsters/marginal/draws/air) I think villain is very weighted towards draws.

 

If he has a monster (sets, two pair, overpairs) and he is semi-competent, he should have seen I am aggressive, and just flatted to let me barrel. Or at least raised smaller if he wants to protect against draws but is still trying to get value. Maybe he raises T9 here for protection but again not sure this large. I don't think he has overpairs because of his flat pre.

 

If he has a marginal hand, Tx, 9x, 33-88, I think he likely just flats and re-evaluates on the turn while he still has room to fold on bad cards and continued aggression. 

 

Which makes me think he has a straight draw, a flush draw, or maybe a combination of the two. I think QJ is his most likely holding here, against which I am a slighty favourite unless they are diamonds. So from a chip EV point of view it is probably a call?

 

But what about the tournament position? I can fold and still have a very good stack, without taking the risk of what is likely just a slightly positive Chip EV play.

 

So I guess my two questions:

  • Is shoving a Chip EV+ play?
  • Is shoving a 'Tournament EV+' play?
emb
Playing Freerolls
Members
Forum Posts: 13
Member Since:
June 23, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
May 24, 2015 - 6:35 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I agree that his range is weighted towards draws and air so I think shoving is fine.  I don't think we're near enough to the money to worry about ICM, so whatever you decide is the answer to the first question is also the answer to the second.

 

emb

ltcolumbo
the D
High Stakes Shark
Members
Forum Posts: 161
Member Since:
May 20, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
May 24, 2015 - 12:21 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

with 888 remaining, I cant see ICM weighing in here…  go with your read…  Assuming you are willing to play for 30BB with top pair thinking you are 2-1 favorite, then your decision is made.

PlasticPearl
Grinding Micros
Members
Forum Posts: 46
Member Since:
April 6, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
May 24, 2015 - 1:58 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

ltcolumbo said:

with 888 remaining, I cant see ICM weighing in here…  go with your read…  Assuming you are willing to play for 30BB with top pair thinking you are 2-1 favorite, then your decision is made.

No, I am playing on 888 Poker, there are 90 remaining 😉 I don't think I'm 2:1. More like 60:40.

Fire
Grinding Micros
Members
Forum Posts: 73
Member Since:
November 24, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
May 24, 2015 - 8:11 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Pretty standard fold IMO. Although I agree that there are many draws in his range you're not doing great against most of these, against monster combo draws with one or two overs you're actually behind. I do not agree that should discount his monsters. On this board with many obvious SDs and FD villain has every incentive to play his monsters fast. Yeah, letting you barrel would probably be better, but assuming certain things in your opponents play style when you dont know him very well is always a recipe for disaster. I think the analysis is a little bit missing the obvious: Unless you have seen him doing something crazy, you should assume that hes playing solid and now he puts half his chips in. So the first guess should be that hes having something good.

Well yes, I dont think its great for your tournamentEV to play for 3/4 of your stack on a marginal spot like this, I mean if you lose you usually have to win at least one flip to get into the money, proabably more, but if you win your equity will not increase by 75%. Of course it could be that he's just going crazy with JT, QT, 78 or total air but you just gotta accept that there are sometimes spots like these in tourneys, you cant win every hand. Would be closer with AT.

Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 2780

Currently Online:
69 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

bennymacca: 2616

Foucault: 2067

folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133

praetor: 1033

theginger45: 924

P-aire 146: 832

Turbulence: 768

The Riceman: 731

duggs: 591

florianm1: 588

Newest Members:

Tillery999

sdmathis89

ne0x00

adrianvaida2525

Anteeater

Laggro

Forum Stats:

Groups: 4

Forums: 24

Topics: 12705

Posts: 75003

 

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1063

Members: 12008

Moderators: 2

Admins: 5

Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos

Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1