November 6, 2018
I found a huge leak at my game that I am trying to overcome with not constant success 🙁 I become aware of it couple month ago (already great success 🙂 ), but still struggling to fix this leak during the game. Under pressure/ lacking time to think I am doing same mistake over and over again, costing me very big pots. Situations like below, which happened in home game, 4 handed NL200.
$350 effective.
A good player from CO open 6, I 3bet to $19 with QQ, BB fold, V call
heads up with $40 in the pot
Flop 363r, I CB 17$ he call – pot $74
8r, I bet $32, he call – pot $138
river 8
At that point I do not see too much monsters at Villains range. quads 3s (one comb, actually very unlikely since he probably fold 33 pre, but possible), quads 8s (one comb, also not very likely since he might fold it to my CBet), FH 66 (3 comb). AA/KK/AK not in his range (he will 4Bet it almost for sure). He might has pocket pair like 99, TT, JJ, QQ (19 combs) in his range. So I decided that I am ahead here frequently. I looked in his stack and it seemed to me as 150-ish. So have decided to go with $45 bet making for him awkwardly to shove on me. I also decided that if he shoves additional 100 into $183 I cannot fold here and call his shove.
And he shoves. So since I decided already for myself I called him without thinking too long.
————————————————-
I believe until this point the play was fine. But then I made few mistakes. I didn’t re-evaluated his range on his shove and called against his range before the bet. (after thinking later it is so obvious that he never does this shove with 99, TT and JJ. Probably even with QQ. And I do not see any bluffs here as well. At all. So this is probably one of the rarest cases when you can almost centrally put him on 1 (ONE) hand , 66.
2nd mistake was I evaluated wrongly his stack size which was much bigger – $205. And I called without asking how much he has behind.
Now my problem here is not in the play itself, but with the fact, that I understand my mistakes. But I was so excited that I am ahead, so hoping him to call so I couldn’t put my theoretical knowledge in work. And I found myself in such situation pretty frequently. specially in the long sessions. Not sure how to deal with that – how to make sure I re-evaluate each situation and take all actions in account.
Any feedback is very appreciated.
P.S. Pretty long post, sorry for that and thanks if you reached this part of the post.
February 8, 2017
I’m going to reply in two parts because it’s late but I don’t want to forget and/or start over tomorrow.
For the leak of getting too excited with big hands, I think the best (and maybe only) cure is experience. If you’re already aware of the issue, just keep paying attention and it will get better. I think most players go through this process and it takes getting smacked by the deck a few (hundred) times to realize that we’re almost never guaranteed to have the best hand, even with a relative monster. Watch Vanessa Selbst agonize about calling with Aces full in the 2017 WSOP, and imagine how many traumatic beats it takes for someone to not excitedly snap call.
skip to 2:09 if you only want the river action
For your specific hand, I have a few suggestions. It seems like you are in the SB, correct me if I’m wrong. I think your 3bet needs to be larger, $19 would be fine if you’re in position but it’s wise to charge villain more for their positional advantage. I’d like somewhere in the range of @$24-30, at least 4x the initial raise.
As played, your flop sizing is fine (on the small size but suitable for the texture) but I think you need to go larger on the turn, probably something in the $45 – $65 range. You want to squeeze some value out of the many lower pocket pairs that are in villain’s range. They should be relatively inelastic on the turn (ie. unlikely to change between calling and folding based on sizing), but not at all guaranteed to call the third barrel even if you keep the pot relatively small, so get as much as you can in the pot on the turn.
I’ll discuss river play and some concerns I have about how you ranged villain in part two.
November 6, 2018
Hi DuckinDaDeck
thanks for your reply and for the video. Pretty sick hand. And I probably will call automatically even without thinking (which is of course bad).
About my hand, yes, I am on SB. Interesting suggestion about 3betting larger OOP, will try it next time, will see the players reaction.Turn 8 rarely helps V range, so I didn’t want to raise big and get him fold all his weak hands and leave only strong range. But I know that I usually on the smaller bet sizes on the turn. However your note about being inelastic on the turn is right and I will take note on that in my next session.
Looking forward to hear your thought about river part
thanks!
November 6, 2018
BTW – even after putting some thought on Vannessa’s hand, I will never fold here. I think she can be against Ah7 (as she mentioned), but also probably 75s will play in the same way. So Vannessa beats most of value hands here and cannot fold her boat which is a (pretty good) bluff-catcher here
February 8, 2017
nkarapet said
At that point I do not see too much monsters at Villains range. quads 3s (one comb, actually very unlikely since he probably fold 33 pre, but possible), quads 8s (one comb, also not very likely since he might fold it to my CBet), FH 66 (3 comb). AA/KK/AK not in his range (he will 4Bet it almost for sure). He might has pocket pair like 99, TT, JJ, QQ (19 combs) in his range. So I decided that I am ahead here frequently.
I think we can give villain credit for a much wider preflop range. If I raise to 3bb in the CO and face a 3x (or even 4x) 3bet from the small blind, I will be peeling relatively wide at >= 100bb effective. I wouldn’t be folding any pocket pairs, any suited aces, or many suited connectors for that matter. So, in the villain’s seat, I would be continuing on the flop with 22-JJ, A3s, A6s, 86s, 76s, 65s, 54s, 75s, some A-high BDFD and probably some Broadway BDFD floats. I could raise some of those on the flop, but this is the type of board texture where I might have no flop raising range at all.
Once you bet again on the turn, I’ll be dropping my worst pocket pairs (22-55) and all of my BDFD floats. Against an unknown, I’m likely continuing with any 6, the three A8s that flopped BDFD, 86s, 75s/54s OESDs, 77+, and any trips+ hand. With rainbow suits on a low paired board, I’m once again likely to have no raising range in position. As long as your turn bet is large enough that a reasonably sized raise on the river will be for stacks, I can wait to pull the trigger with my best hands. This allows your bluffs to keep betting and keeps your value range as wide as possible.
As you can see, I reach the river with more 8s than you accounted for (2*A8s, 2*86s), both combos of quads, sixes full, and 2 combos of A3s. I’m also likely to have 24 combos of unimproved pocket pairs (77-JJ), and a moderate number of 6s (likely A6s,76s,65s). I’ll also have a few busted draws.
Considering this range, I think QQ is strong enough to value bet, but it’s not a fist-pump situation by any means. My calling range on the river would depend somewhat on any read I might have, but I think I’d be calling ~JJ/TT/A6s as far as hands that you beat. That’s 15 combos. I counted 11 combos of hands that beat QQ. So QQ is strong enough to value bet but, unless you expect villain to pay you off with 99/77/some other combos (or raise some of his best hands on earlier streets), it’s still somewhat thin.
It’s difficult to comment accurately on sizing without knowing exact stacks, but river bet should probably be larger than ~ 40%. I’d prefer something in the 65-75% range. Those %s still apply if you had bet the turn larger.
No matter what size you use, I think the only way to play this river is a bet-fold. Villain is highly unlikely to reach the river with many hands that need to bluff. There are 8 likely combos of straight draws but no reason to think the villain raises all of them. Unless we’re giving them credit for double-floats or turning a weak pair into a bluff, it’s really hard to find enough bluffs that we can afford to pay off their nutted hands. They would be crazy to raise anything worse than our hand for value, so we don’t really need to consider that.
Despite it being expensive and never feeling good to build a big pot and bet-fold the river, that doesn’t mean it isn’t the best way to play your hand. I think we can get enough calls for QQ to highly prefer value betting over either check-calling or check-folding river, but only if we’re disciplined enough to fold once we face a raise.
November 6, 2018
Nice analysis, DuckinDaDeck.
I didn’t put Villian on suited A, and I agree, he will call 3B with it. I doubt though Villian will call pre with 68s.
As a rest of your range construction I feel it is pretty correct.
As regard the bet size I do agree – it was another mistake on this hand when I estimated wrongly Villians stack size causing me the bet less. I wanted to bet in the way his shove wouldn’t be scary giving him zero incentive to shove for bluff (during the hand I was thinking he might have some bluffs).
bet/fold is so difficult play 🙁
may be, may be next time I will find it in my play…
February 5, 2015
So you won’t get any in depth analysis from me like you get from DDD above. Great to see you back DDD, I thought you had left us.
No my brother, or sister or whatever relation you are, what you will get from me instead transcends detailed analysis. Indeed, I believe my game is actually so advanced that all that detailed analysis has coalesced in to my poker brain that I work on pure intuition and am able to come up with…a load of old bollocks.
All I can offer you is the way I think about these spots generally. An overpair is almost always a marginal hand by the river. I will bet or call 2 streets maximum usually, and will never put in a third bet unless I have a strong reason to. My default here is to fold, unless I have a good reason otherwise. Think of it in terms of stop-loss, like the stock traders use.
November 6, 2018
Thanks Riceman.
Bollocks are same appreciated 🙂
I wanted to make sure I am not developing in poker any bioses (as I did already, a lot. From the time I was playing with even less understanding what I was doing), but this stop-loss may be interesting concept, at least unless I will learn how to fight the blindness with an overpair when instead of thinking my bran (eh, whatever) just screaming “Vegas and f_king mirage” .
February 5, 2015
ok nkarapet, you have convinced me…on Friday I am going to write a thread at TPE explaining why stock traders and poker players might have an interchangeable skill set…the game of NL hold’em being in effect, a probabilities market, with each player setting themselves up as a bookie…
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