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Thoughts on inducing the 4bet shove with 77
hapetimes
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March 8, 2012 - 1:11 am
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Poker Stars $20+$2 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t75/t150 Blinds + t20 – 6 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

mboulette (CO): BB = 30.4, t4556
schaeng (BTN): BB = 32.4, t4858
Wuceifer (SB): BB = 27.9, t4180
VILU77 (BB): BB = 22.9, t3433
netspider_by (UTG): BB = 26.5, t3979
Hero (MP): BB = 32.4, t4853

Pre Flop: (t345) Hero is MP with 7 of spades 7 of diamonds
netspider_by raises to t343, Hero raises to t777, 4 folds, netspider_by raises to t3959 all in, Hero calls t3182

 

The previous 20 hands i have opened or 3bet more than half of giving me a pretty crazy image

Including overbetting the river pot with air and getting called down by 4th pair

Also opened and won 3 pots in a row

Also 3bet this guy to my right 3 times within these last 20 hands, 1 which he clicked it back and i folded, and the other 2 he folded to my 3bet, the last one was 2 hands ago where i 3bet A9o from button

 

When i picked up this hand i had a real strong feeling that if i 3bet him, this was the hand he would 'adjust' and begin to 4bet me wider.. and i thought about this BEFORE i 3bet him and literally had my cursor hovering over the call button when he was making his decision.

 

Villain shoved and actually had QdiamondTdiamond

 

I know this is a high variance play and am wondering if anyone else likes the line or would just fold pre?

Or 3bet fold to a jam?

FkCoolers
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March 8, 2012 - 5:21 am
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Like you said, pretty high variance. You’ll occasionally show up as a 70/30 favorite but usually you’re inducing a flip for 75% of your stack.

If you've done all these other plays, though, I can see a 3 bet and get it in spot since he really should be opening up his 4 betting range to be practically ATC he opens with. 

JLUDEOBV
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March 8, 2012 - 10:31 am
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I like the 3b and the sizing. You can't just have a plan for the guy opening UTG. What happens if one of the other four players behind you 4bets you? Are you 5 bet jamming? Seems to me your image at this table is pretty wild so you will get some players to adjust to your 3b and start 4betting you lighter. The problem is your position at the table and the awkward stack sizes. I'm not sure I really would like to “induce” a 4b shove here and contemplate calling off a majority of your stack with 77. If you were the one 4 bet jamming it would be different. A vast majority of the time you are flipping in this situation. Obv it is high variance and I don't have a problem with that, but if you are running over the table you might not have to take this high variance route. No one at the table is deeper than 33 bb's so there really isn't a ton of room for play. Based on that, I like the high variance route and your thought process of 3b/c here with 77. I think villain spazzes with 66-22 here based on your image and history at the table. Win the flip and put yourself in great position to punish the table as they won't be able to do much with their 20-30 bb stacks.

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RonFezBuddy
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March 8, 2012 - 10:33 am
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Too high variance imo.  He turns over bigger pairs too often.  I think you got your desired result this time but won't most of the time.

JLUDEOBV
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March 8, 2012 - 10:55 am
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RonFezBuddy said:

Too high variance imo.  He turns over bigger pairs too often.  I think you got your desired result this time but won’t most of the time.

It is def very high variance. I think if villain is a good player he is def going to be making a play here often. I know I would against someone who has 3b me a lot. I think the real question when debating whether or not to induce here with 77 is… “Will villain ever 4b jam here with worse?” If the answer is yes then I def like this play. If it is no then there is no point in trying to induce a 4b shove against a player that really isn’t competent. We know your image but I think it is important to know the villain’s image as well when making plays like this and thinking “outside the box”.

Tiny_Molester
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March 9, 2012 - 12:22 am
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Yes I agree given your description that villain is 4betting almost his entire opening range against you: That does not mean his 4bet is weak because of positional dynamics. I think against his range you will have ~ 45-50% equity at best and never more. Inducing with that little equity in the pot is like the others have said way too much variance!

hapetimes
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March 9, 2012 - 5:10 am
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at least we all agree it's very high variance, something i'm not that accustomed to

i chose to play this way to test my comfort level and found it was ok

 

it just seems that the most aggressive people these days are the ones that pick crazy and extemely high variance lines, accumulate chips and make deep runs

 

by the way i ran the math on this one giving villain a range like 22+A5s+A9o,K9s+KJo,QTs,QJo and it's something in the vicinity of being +EV by a little over 600 chips which is 4bb

 

i think given that particular tourney i didnt need to take that line, it's one of my favourite tourneys i've previously shipped, but i took the risk to try and get that 60bb stack and become table captain

 

btw i kinda felt goodcool

badabing78
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March 9, 2012 - 8:32 am
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with given history and because its pretty early in the tourney i think its ok. i like to take a gamble early in tourneys to get a big stack.

DaNta5tiC
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March 9, 2012 - 3:50 pm
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I agree with a few things in here. It's high variance yes and JLUDE is right if you think he is not a compitent player that understands what you could be making a play here with then it is probally fine. Overall I wouldn't be risking everything on it.

FkCoolers
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March 10, 2012 - 10:21 am
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The only thing that makes me not like it as much is the fact he utg opens.

Yes, it's 6 max, but he should had adjusted to opening tighter since you're playing very lag. 

That's why I say you're inducing a flip the majority of the time – I'd guess like 85% in this spot. 

If it was CO to Button or Button to blinds that would be entirely different. 

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