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September 14, 2014
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TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Looks good.
September 14, 2014
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thank you andrew.
It's just that when I c/r flop , there's not much i can really rep , apart from QTs/T5s/55/.
I would had prefered to have a hand like KJ/KQ or AT , these would had been a better blufing candidate.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Yeah I doubt it's a balanced raise but I also think V is really wide/weak and will fold super often.
September 14, 2014
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yeah I was thinking the same thing , btw how would you define a un-balanced strategy?
March 14, 2015
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I dont like it at all , to be honest. Its sooo early in the tourney and there barely any chips in the pot.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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PokerGoals said:
I dont like it at all , to be honest. Its sooo early in the tourney and there barely any chips in the pot.
What does early in the tourney have to do with anything?
Sure, it's not a big pot, but that also means Hero isn't risking much to try to win it.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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folding_aces_pre_yo said:
yeah I was thinking the same thing , btw how would you define a un-balanced strategy?
One where, if Villain knew your range, he could exploit you. If you make a small bet with 50% air and 50% value hands, Villain can exploit you by calling bluff-catchers and bluff-raising air. If you bomb the river with lot of strong hands and few bluffs, Villain can exploit you by folding all his bluff-catchers. If you make a pot-sized bet with 67% value hands and 33% bluffs, Villain can't exploit you either by folding or by calling, even if you told him that was your strategy.
March 14, 2015
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just seems spewing to me. high risk low reward IMO.
September 14, 2014
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PokerGoals said:
just seems spewing to me. high risk low reward IMO.
There's no high risk here, villians range is super weak/wide , we're probably winning the pot here a huge percentage of the time also if you always give up on small pots which could be easily won , then you're missing out on good bluffing opportunties , as in your bluffing range should be very wide in certain situations.
I recommend you watch andrew's bluffing series or rewatch it , for sure.
September 14, 2014
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Foucault said:
One where, if Villain knew your range, he could exploit you. If you make a small bet with 50% air and 50% value hands, Villain can exploit you by calling bluff-catchers and bluff-raising air. If you bomb the river with lot of strong hands and few bluffs, Villain can exploit you by folding all his bluff-catchers. If you make a pot-sized bet with 67% value hands and 33% bluffs, Villain can't exploit you either by folding or by calling, even if you told him that was your strategy.
Cheers. 🙂
March 14, 2015
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With regards to being no risk, i dont agree with that statment at all. Villian could easily have a lot of hands that call flol/turn and fold river.
It just seems soooo unnessacary IMO
By raising the flop we building a pot OOP with 9 high and no nut draws. When we have only invested our bb in the pot. Theres 120 chips in the pot! we have around 2500!. The pot means nothing to us.
So heres my question to all of you. . . . are we betting river too?
P.S @Nosebleed i dont appreciate you condescending attitude towards my thoughts on the hands.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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PokerGoals said:
With regards to being no risk, i dont agree with that statment at all. Villian could easily have a lot of hands that call flol/turn and fold river.
It just seems soooo unnessacary IMO
By raising the flop we building a pot OOP with 9 high and no nut draws. When we have only invested our bb in the pot. Theres 120 chips in the pot! we have around 2500!. The pot means nothing to us.
So heres my question to all of you. . . . are we betting river too?
P.S @Nosebleed i dont appreciate you condescending attitude towards my thoughts on the hands.
Of course Villain could call. But will he call more than half the time? Because Hero is risking 120 to win 180, never mind that Hero will have equity in the pot when called as well.
It's either +EV or it isn't. “Necessary” just isn't a useful frame of reference for thinking about these things. Neither is “too early” in the tournament. Your goal is always to accumulate chips, always to play each hand as profitably as it could be played. If raising is more profitable than folding, then that's what you do. Chips won through bluffs are worth just as much as chips won through value betting.
His post didn't seem condescending to me, and I hope mine won't come across that way either. We are just both trying to tell you that you are not thinking about this hand in the best way.
January 27, 2013
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Agree with everything Andrew said. I also like to make plays like this early to make my stats look more agrro than they are. I also 3-bet more often when blinds are low to accomplish a higher 3-bet %. I think that many players in todays game are making a lot of decisions based on HUD stats. I do not do this often but is is a part of my game plan.
Question: Is this -EV in the long run?
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December 6, 2012
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EllDan said:
Agree with everything Andrew said. I also like to make plays like this early to make my stats look more agrro than they are. I also 3-bet more often when blinds are low to accomplish a higher 3-bet %. I think that many players in todays game are making a lot of decisions based on HUD stats. I do not do this often but is is a part of my game plan.
Question: Is this -EV in the long run?
Making an otherwise -EV play just to juke your stats is probably not a good idea. You should just actually be aggressive. Like, if you usually only 3bet QQ+ and AK, but then you randomly 3bet other stuff just to make your stats more aggressive, then you should just start 3betting a more intelligently balanced range instead. There are plenty of spots where you can 3bet non-premium hands with a positive expectation. If you take those spots, you won't lose money and you'll have a higher 3bet stat.
November 4, 2013
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I accept and believe that this is a +EV move but I wouldn't have guessed it if I were in game facing this situation.
My question to LondonAce and to Foucault is: What about this hand exactly makes it a good bluffing spot? What I can gather is the following: The flop looks reasonably hard to hit (though not nearly impossible considering nobody raised preflop), and London has a gut shot to the straight to produce equity when called (but it's not that much equity compared to an open ender or flush draw, not to mention his straight won't be the nut straight).
Are these the main factors to produce a good bluffing spot, and are they enough, or am I missing some key reasons?
Thanks!
September 14, 2014
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@pokergoals , my apologises that i came across that way.
@der, it makes it a good bluffing spot because villian will be folding so often , our bluffing range should be wide as i mentioned previously , now you my be wondering how wide? well i'd say any 2 overcards or any selebence of a draw.
Not to sure if we can bluff with all our air?, maybe andrew might be able to give his thoughts on this.
May 20, 2013
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I think this is an interesting hand to discuss… I often am amazed at the multiple ways to look at a hand. In this case, I don't like the c/r and here is why: (I do tend to agree that pre-ante I dont need to bluff at small pots and accidently create big pots when its cheap to get away.)
When I c/r this dry of a board, how does this look to villian? Hero flatted pre from the BB.
I would expect that he folds a good deal of the time for the same reasons we discussed. He doesnt want to build a pot with a marginal hand this early. But if he calls, you are going to have to fire the turn as a follow up to your c/r to have any credibility. And when you do, he wont likely put you on a draw based on the flop. So to villain you are now either bluffing or have a big hand from the BB (like 55 or 2 pair). I think villain calling that c/r just to see if you fire the turn is weak on his part… but its really what you are exploiting. If he has a Q or a T, you are going to have to barrel the river if he calls here. And the pot on a turn call would be about $1k, so you are going to have 1/3 of your stack in (in like level 2) with a gut-shot as your sole escape pod.
I know this view is very pre-ante centric, as well as risk-adverse, but pre-ante I want to lose tiny pots or win big pots and this scenario is neither to me.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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schwartz,
The things you mention aren’t irrelevant, but far and away the most important factor is that your opponents have all shown a lot of weakness, first by limping and then by checking the flop. The strongest one is the player in an excellent steal position betting the minimum. It’s not about how often they hit the flop, it’s about how often they won’t hit the flop.
columbo,
Check-raising the flop doesn’t lock you into betting the turn, and in fact I probably wouldn’t. I think that the flop c/r will produce enough folds that I can afford to lose 100% of the time that I am called and do not improve on the turn.
I still don’t understand what it means to “need to bluff”. This attitude that small pots aren’t worth fighting over is what produces situations like this in the first place. Your opponents have all so obviously checked out here that you can just grab free chips. And when you make it clear that you aren’t going to play poker until there are antes in the pot, you make it absurdly easy for the player in last position to steal those chips instead, by just throwing out the minimum bet.
The fact that it’s a small pot means Hero isn’t risking much to try to win it.
May 20, 2013
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I tend to look at an MTT as a bell curve (with a dent at the bubble). I want to narrow my ranges when the play is loose. It’s not that I wont bluff, its that I dont want to see a limped pot then bluff OOP at this stage when reads are hard to rely on. There will be so many more profitable spots where early stage players will spew chips.
September 14, 2014
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okay lets just say we do check turn and v checks back and we get to the river and lets just say its an A
, if v has KJ he’s calling obv , though i’d hate it to just check as we won’t have any SDV, thoughts on maybe making a bet of 1/3 of the pot to get him to fold maybe small pocket pairs? i’d prefer to bet small vs better players though against this player (bad player)
shoving river for like 4 times the pot seems better, what’s he going to do? call with Tx? or Qx? doubtful.
May 20, 2013
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folding_aces_pre_yo said:
what's he going to do? call with Tx? or Qx? doubtful.
I think you answered your own question then? But I personally dont wanted to be bombing pots with bluffs in level 2.
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