bennymacca said:

 

i think the answer is really dependent on the structure, and the average stack of the tournament. If you have 20bb but the average is 50bb then i think open shoving can be completely fine, as you want to be able to put maximum pressure on with your stack. 
 

if you are playing a turbo though, and you have 20bb but the average is 12bb, i think you are in an awesome positon and i think open shoving is risking a really good stack. in this situation i think you should be trying to conserve a lot, and as was mentioned in the other thread, raise folding even down to 12-15bb before switching to an open shove can be really profitable

That!

Here are my thoughts on how I play 20 BBs stacks.  First, I have to give an example of the games I typically play.  I mostly play at Harrah's $85 daily MTTs and Parx $120 daily MTTs.  

Harrah's does not have antes, so the effective stacks of 20 BBs play about deeper than they do with antes in play.  An effective stack of 8,000 at Parx at 200/400 + 50 plays different than 8,000 at Harrah's at 200/400.  So I will go through my thoughts on how I play these at Parx.  

The players at Parx tend to range from loose passive, TAGs, TAGfish*, LAGfish*, and LAGs.  There are relatively few Tight passives any more in those games.  Here are my plays:

1)  I rarely open shove any hand 20 BBs deep.  

2)  I don't fall into the camp that says never open unless you are willing to call a shove.  I think if the players left to act are going to play standard and won't 3 bet re-steal light, then take what they give you.  

3)  If there are players who are capable of shoving light, then I will tighten up, but i will still have a open/fold range here.  

4)  My typical open here is about 2.25x.  At 200/400 + 50, I will open to 900.  

So with those in mind in a game where there are players who might exploit my open, I would typically open hands like 88+, AJs, and AQ from EP, and in MP go down to about 55+, AT, KQ and any 2 suited broadway hands.  Sometimes KJ depending on position and the players left to act.  In LP it is totally player dependent.  I like to steal wheneveer I think I can get away with it.  If not, I will still open Ax (blockers), and broadway hands.  I still have a few open/fold hands here. 

Against players who won't 3 bet me often without the goods, I will open whenever I think the blinds won't dfend “effectively” and I have a hand with some potential post flop for my position.  

Most of all, you cannot be afraid to play post flop.  Granted it's not easy when you totally miss with low SPR, but I hav econfidence that I can make better post flop decisions than the compeition I usually go up against.  

NOTES: * TAGfish and LAGfish are my designations for players who play the prototypical game of their type preflop, but revert to a simple hit or miss game post flop.  they may throw out a c-bet, but getting any resistance, they revert to a standard ABC game thereafter.  

shutEMdown said:

I appreciate ur response but let me explain that im mid stakes reg with 8yrs of mtt experience…im not new or scared to play post. I consider myself to have pretty good fundamentals. im just going through a transitional period in my game, tweaking my ranges and looking for more exploitable plays as games have gotten tougher, esp online in the usa. I was at a point where i was seeing all the minR/f with shallow stacks around me while i wasnt doing it. I asked myself if im being exploited by not following the trend. Then i realized that my 15-20bb opening range became too tight per the trend. Then i got too loose. I cudnt quite figure out how to improve what i considered a leak to my game. Wat use to be strong point of my game had become weaker.

I did not mean to insult you and i'm sorry if you took it that way.  

But anyway, against players who will 3 bet light, I would still have a raise/fold range, but the fold part of the range is reduced.  I think you still want a fold range because there are times you want them to 3 bet you light.  If youa re always opening with a tight range two things happen – you don't get enough hands to open and you blind down and you only win the blinds when you finally get a hand.  

I like to use the GTO formula to develop my bluff range.  For example from UTG, if your value range is 5% and your bet is 2.25 into a pot of 2.50 BBs (with antes).  The GTO formula is a = s/1+s, where a equals the ratio bluffs that should be in your range and s = the size of the bet in relation to the pot.  Here it is 0.9 so a = 0.9/1 + 0.9 = 47%.  So you should bluff 47% as often with this betting size as your value bet.  So if you are open/call 5% UTG, maybe add another 2.3% of bluff hands to your range.  This way if you are 3 bet shoved on you will be calling off often enough to not allow your opponent to 3 bet you at will and freeroll on your calls, you will have just enough folds to encourage him to 3 bet light, and you will be attacking the blinds often enough to stay ahead of the increasing blinds.   

so whatever range you feel is appropriate for open/call, add a little under 50% more hands to your range as a bluff/fold range to attack just a few more pots.  (that is if your open bet is the same sizing to mine.  If not just put in your own bet sizing to the formula to come up with a good number).