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Sunday Million ~500 players left. Can we ever get away from the river as played?
mitris87
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March 28, 2016 - 5:20 am
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New to table, no reads on any players – only 3rd hand at the table. No previous history with any villan.

Could have folded flop – of course, but the check raise could be a number of bluffs/semi bluffs – all be it, most of his bluffs have good equity against my hand – it could have just been a fold. Does the thought of folding ever enter our minds on the river?

Is the cbet incorrect? whilst better hands dont fold, we do protect our hand from overcards + get the occasional float from overcards. 

Views/opinions would be much appreciated.

 

PokerStars – $200+$15|2000/4000 Ante 400 NL – Holdem – 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 40,099 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
BTN: 112,566 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
SB: 69,720 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
BB: 109,836 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 2)
UTG: 42,607 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 2)
UTG+1: 134,007 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 2)
Hero (MP): 143,746
MP+1: 232,694 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
MP+2: 133,451 (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)

9 players post ante of 400, SB posts SB 2,000, BB posts BB 4,000

Pre Flop: (pot: 9,600) Hero has 4diamond 4club

fold, fold, Hero raises to 8,365, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 4,365

Flop: (22,330, 2 players) 7spade 7diamond 8club
BB checks, Hero bets 8,585, BB raises to 23,565, Hero calls 14,980

Turn: (69,460, 2 players) Adiamond
BB checks, Hero checks

River: (69,460, 2 players) 4heart
BB bets 77,506 and is all-in, Hero calls 77,506

[spoil]BB shows 8diamond 7club (Full House, Sevens full of Eights)
(Pre 50%, Flop 99.9%, Turn 100%)
Hero shows 4diamond 4club (Full House, Fours full of Sevens)
(Pre 50%, Flop 0.1%, Turn 0%)
BB wins 224,472
[/spoil]

Foucault

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March 28, 2016 - 11:48 am
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Betting flop is good for the reasons you gave, but you have to fold to the check-raise. Just because your opponent could be bluffing doesn’t mean you should call. As you acknowledged, you have poor equity against his range and little hope of improving, which makes your hand a bad bluff-catcher.

MovieFX
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March 28, 2016 - 3:18 pm
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This is something I am struggling with (in fact I posted a question about this in another thread). Why does someone who flops a Full House in this range check-raise? Is it just a matter of targeting the top of Hero’s range and not caring about the rest? Hero may float the check-raise with over-pairs, some AKs and a few rare 7s or 8s (rare IMO due to position of open, if they are there they are probably part of a suited connector/1-2 gapper) so this seems awfully slim as a value line. In this exact hand, we hero folds to the check-raise or the 4 doesn’t hit, V wins the minimum. Granted a call by V can look strong here too, but at least it isn’t as polarizing. 

I agree that folding the check-raise is good because even if V doesn’t hit the board so hard he may still have overs or an over-pair. In fact, I think hands like 55, 66, 99, TT, A8, 9T and 56 are all possible and more likely to check-raise and they are all ahead or drawing with overs.

Foucault

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March 28, 2016 - 5:45 pm
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MovieFX said
This is something I am struggling with (in fact I posted a question about this in another thread). Why does someone who flops a Full House in this range check-raise? Is it just a matter of targeting the top of Hero’s range and not caring about the rest? Hero may float the check-raise with over-pairs, some AKs and a few rare 7s or 8s (rare IMO due to position of open, if they are there they are probably part of a suited connector/1-2 gapper) so this seems awfully slim as a value line. In this exact hand, we hero folds to the check-raise or the 4 doesn’t hit, V wins the minimum. Granted a call by V can look strong here too, but at least it isn’t as polarizing. 

I agree that folding the check-raise is good because even if V doesn’t hit the board so hard he may still have overs or an over-pair. In fact, I think hands like 55, 66, 99, TT, A8, 9T and 56 are all possible and more likely to check-raise and they are all ahead or drawing with overs.

Yes, essentially. This is a bit like asking, “Why re-raise pocket Aces before the flop?” Of course your opponent will fold sometimes, but overall you generally do best by building a pot against the of his range. Keep in mind that folding is probably be correct even if you knew Villain would NOT check-raise a full house, as you are drawing almost as poorly against any trips, any 8, any overpair, etc. and even in the best-case scenario where V is in fact semi-bluffing you aren’t a favorite.

MovieFX
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March 28, 2016 - 6:52 pm
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Foucault said

MovieFX said
This is something I am struggling with (in fact I posted a question about this in another thread). Why does someone who flops a Full House in this range check-raise? 

…This is a bit like asking, “Why re-raise pocket Aces before the flop?” Of course your opponent will fold sometimes, but overall you generally do best by building a pot against the of his range. …

That is such a great way to throw it back. I really should be check-raising more of my own monsters to balance my steals anyway. I guess if the board is dry enough it may even look so much like a steal that people will come along light.

Foucault

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March 28, 2016 - 9:55 pm
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MovieFX said

Foucault said

MovieFX said
This is something I am struggling with (in fact I posted a question about this in another thread). Why does someone who flops a Full House in this range check-raise? 

…This is a bit like asking, “Why re-raise pocket Aces before the flop?” Of course your opponent will fold sometimes, but overall you generally do best by building a pot against the of his range. …

That is such a great way to throw it back. I really should be check-raising more of my own monsters to balance my steals anyway. I guess if the board is dry enough it may even look so much like a steal that people will come along light.

Yes. “Balancing steals” is not necessarily an end in itself, but the fact that you could be bluffing is what gives your opponents incentive to call with bluff-catchers when you have monster hands, just as the fact that you could have monsters is what gives your opponents incentive to fold to your bluffs.

mitris87
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March 28, 2016 - 10:47 pm
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The check raise on this board was not believable which is what got me to stick around with 44. (although we are all in agreeance that it would have been better to fold, as even pure bluffs have ample equity vs my hand) 

 

A check-call on this board would have looked far stronger to me than a check raise. 

 

I guess some reasoning behind the call was that I would not expect the villan to continue in the hand with a pure bluff based on his stack size (SPR of ~1) – He would be putting his entire tournament at risk with absolutely no hand, and after my call on the flop he has to give me credit for something. 

 

When he shoves river, I dont expect him to be bluffing too often – but is there any way to fold when the 4 rivers?

There are still a few hands that he could be shoving for value that I beat (any 7, 56s)

florianm1
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March 29, 2016 - 3:28 am
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bet/fold at any street. please dont forget the fold part as andrew explained why

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March 29, 2016 - 4:27 am
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mitris87 said

A check-call on this board would have looked far stronger to me than a check raise. 

Which I assume is exactly the reason to do a check raise in here. It looks like a bluff and, if you have certain hands of your range you’ll be compelled to call. Trying to get his ultra strong hand to look bluffy I think was the main reason for the check-raise instead of the call.

MovieFX
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March 29, 2016 - 3:37 pm
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mitris87 said
…but is there any way to fold when the 4 rivers?

There are still a few hands that he could be shoving for value that I beat (any 7, 56s)

I don’t think I can fold the river. My thinking would probably be that your 4 looks like a brick and with V’s line and an SPR around 1:1  I think V shoves straights and trips more often than he has exactly 78 on the flop (and that check raise still steers my mind away from a boat even after all the discussion here) a hyper-aggressive move with an open-ended straight with 56s actually looks like a possible line for V, especially if it is 5diamond6diamond since he gained a ton of back-door equity on the turn when he checks and there are fewer 8s in your range IMO.

Does anyone find a fold on the river as played?
 

MovieFX
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March 29, 2016 - 3:39 pm
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…actually, A7 looks like a perfect fit too…sigh…I think my call just became a crying one…. 

Foucault

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March 29, 2016 - 4:44 pm
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MovieFX said

…actually, A7 looks like a perfect fit too…sigh…I think my call just became a crying one…. 

Just because you don’t have the nuts doesn’t make it a crying call. As you and others have pointed out, V can be shoving worse for value, which makes this a very profitable call. No one “finds a fold on the river”, and even looking for one is extremely results oriented thinking.

The Riceman
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March 29, 2016 - 6:09 pm
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“That is such a great way to throw it back. I really should be check-raising more of my own monsters to balance my steals anyway”

For sure. I also came to the horrific realization fairly recently that I was ONLY check-raising as a bluff.

I have now started throwing in some check raises with ie flopped nut straights/flushes a small % of the time. 

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