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Strange spot with AKo 58BB
GunnJD
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September 20, 2015 - 3:22 pm
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Around 45 left in a big field Bovada $10 mtt. 

Strange open shove for ~25 big blinds. 

Am I making a mistake by not fist pump jamming? In a cash game, I would. I’m trying to be a bit more risk averse when I get deep in these large field MTTs, however. 

No particular reads on villains, other than their stats. I hadn’t noticed MP1 doing things like this previously. 

A lot, I imagine, depends on how BTN perceives MP1. 

Calling seemed like a fair option, as I imagined it would play quite easy post flop. I expect the average Bovada player to play pretty honest post flop in these situations.

 

PokerStars – $10+$1|1500/3000 Ante 300.00 NL – Holdem – 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP+1: 68,274 (VPIP: 29.55, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 19.05, Hands: 45)
CO: 36,796 (VPIP: 18.97, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 3.85, Hands: 58)
BTN: 261,097 (VPIP: 21.05, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 19)
SB: 99,574 (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
Hero (BB): 174,414
UTG: 22,201 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
UTG+1: 67,020 (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
MP: 54,872 (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)

8 players post ante of 300, SB posts SB 1,500, Hero posts BB 3,000

Pre Flop: (pot: 6,900) Hero has Kspade Aheart

fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to 67,974 and is all-in, fold, BTN calls 67,974, fold, Hero

Foucault

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September 20, 2015 - 5:52 pm
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I’m OK with folding considering this is a 22BB jam and a call. I’d call just the jam, and I’d overcall up to about 18BB.

GunnJD
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September 20, 2015 - 6:26 pm
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Thank you sir! 

May I ask why 18bb is the sweet spot here? 

Had a good run in this and lost heads up, but went in a big dog in chips.

Foucault

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September 20, 2015 - 10:19 pm
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That’s off the top of my head, the point is as the amount gets less, people’s ranges get wider.

SSSMforlife

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September 21, 2015 - 11:58 am
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I think this spot is close and comes down a few important factors. First of all, I think it’s a mistake for the BTN to flat any part of his range here, simply because of the stack sizes behind. If you shove in your stack over his flat he’s getting almost 3-1 to call off vs you which means he should never be folding…UNLESS he’s bad enough to fold to your over-shove, which very well may be the case seeing though flatted in the first place and this is an $10 mtt with lots of bad players. 

The other important factor here is, less experienced players will often flat in spots like this with the top of the ranges (ie. AA, KK – which of course you block both of) thinking it will induce more action, but of course it just looks stronger and discourages at against most opponents. 

Now, when the jammer in the h/j open shoves 22 bbs, we can exclude the biggest hands from his range (unless we have a specific read, as the vast majority of opponents are inducing 88+, AQ+ and even wider depending on their style, experience level, etc.) So their range is typically something like 22-77, AT-AQ, KQ, and suited broadways – which we crush with AK obv. 

The BTN is the wildcard in this situation. It’s hard to know exactly what his range is here and what hands he chooses to flat with and which ones he chooses to jam with. But, we know know he’s bad enough to flat in a spot where he really shouldnt be. I think there is a chance he can have a hands like 99-JJ and AQ and fold them to your jam. The only way I think we can fold here is if we’re almost certain the BTN is only flatting with QQ+, and in this situation, I don’t think we can make that assumption. 

I like that you are looking for high variance spots to pass up on in soft tournies, but I think this spot in particular is too profitable to pass up. If the BTN folds even 10% of the time to your jam, we’re loosing massive equity here and we have decent equity with AK when he calls us.

GunnJD
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September 21, 2015 - 1:40 pm
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58 big blinds isn’t HUGE, but getting toward the final stages and with this soft of a field, I think there is a case for avoiding such a high variance spot. 

 

Results: 

 

I flat called. Checked two streets, King came on the river. I don’t recall what the open shover had, it was something weird, A5 or 55, and the flat caller had AJo. 

 

Foucault has convinced me that I should fold, despite the results.

jacobsharktank
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September 22, 2015 - 12:35 am
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just did a few equity calculations and messed with ranges a bit. i can’t really find one where you have greater than 33% equity and tbh i’m surprised by that. so yah, i started writing this convinced it would be an automatic 3b shove, but unless the callers folding a nonzero amount of the time, youre probably just barely breaking even? idk. i gave them lots of diff kinds of ranges too.

SSSMforlife

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September 22, 2015 - 1:01 pm
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I don’t think we need 33% equity to be profitable getting it in. We’re getting it in against two players, but their stacks are different and there’s blinds and antes to account for.

I ran it in HoldemResources and gave the villains ranges on the tighter end and even if the BTN doesn’t fold any part of his range to our jam, AK off still makes 9.65 bb which is pretty significant.

Our get-in range should be 99+ and AK, but 99 only earned 2.6bb so you could consider folding that if you wanted to pass up a smaller edge. 

Foucault

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September 22, 2015 - 3:07 pm
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I have no doubt that this is a call at equilibrium. However, a typical live player’s range for calling the shove is scary IMO.

Nervous Mike
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September 22, 2015 - 5:42 pm
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 I would get it in, and SSSMforlife makes the life easy for me and describes why.

This for me comes down to my play style and that I ain’t afraid to rumble in this kind of spots.

Foucault

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September 22, 2015 - 9:13 pm
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Nervous Mike said
 I would get it in, and SSSMforlife makes the life easy for me and describes why.

This for me comes down to my play style and that I ain’t afraid to rumble in this kind of spots.

OK, as long as you’re willing to accept that your style may lose you money in some situations. There are times in tournament poker where “rumbling” is not +$EV.

Nervous Mike
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September 22, 2015 - 11:08 pm
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OK, my answer might been short and stupid. Let me go a bit deeper, but most if not all of the work SSSM already did.

The times the button fold pre, and you win, you pick up 22bbs from the all in, the 22bb dead chips the button did put in and you end up with 102bbs. Pretty nice situation to be in when there is 45 players left.

The times the button fold, and you loose vs the all in you still gonna have 36bbs, there is for sure some difference between having 58bbs and 36bbs, but you are still in a good shape, and still have the ability to use your stack for 3bets and 4bets. 

The times the button call, and you win, you pick up 22bbs from the all in, the 58bbs from the button and you end up with 138bbs.
Boss mode. 

The times you loose you obv gonna have 0 chips left and be out. Not great. 

As SSSM already pointed out, the button is the wildcard. But as we have double blockers with the AKo it’s less likely he got AA and KK, that he is flatting. Versus a flatting range I think we very often dominate him or in worst case we are flipping.

As he is very polarized when he flats the 22bb shove. 
The hands we are flipping against, JJ, QQ, remember blockers to KK and AA so they are less likely, also mid strength pocketpairs I can see in his range, most of them are gonna fold. We show enormous strength and people are not calling enough in those spots.
The hands that might find a call are hands we do dominate. AQ, AJ etc. 

The times the button find the top 2-5% of hands that got us in really bad shape is not enough vs the times we are in way better shape. 

I did the HRC calc myself and got to a slightly different number than SSSM, just +4.35. But I still think this is way to much to pass up at this stage of the tournament. 

That is why I rumble. 

Foucault

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September 23, 2015 - 12:10 am
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Sure, I mean that’s not a question of style. If you think it’s a shove that’s worth 4.35bb, then anyone who doesn’t take it hates money. But the shove is either +EV or it isn’t. If it isn’t, folding doesn’t mean you’re scared of gambling, it means you like money.

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