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step 3: weird spot with TPTK
MartinAltman
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August 30, 2011 - 5:10 pm
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Poker Stars $75+$7 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t25/t50 Blinds – 8 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

CraneOp7 (BTN): t925 18.50 BBs
royalistykos (SB): t3057 61.14 BBs
agynus (BB): t1430 28.60 BBs
MountWood (UTG): t2985 59.70 BBs
deivid44 (UTG+1): t1365 27.30 BBs
Hero (MP1): t1605 32.10 BBs
ESA28 (MP2): t983 19.66 BBs
MC_Incognito (CO): t1150 23 BBs

Pre Flop: (t75) Hero is MP1 with K of hearts A of diamonds
2 folds, Hero raises to t125, 3 folds, royalistykos calls t100, agynus calls t75

Flop: (t375) 2 of diamonds 8 of clubs 5 of clubs (3 players)
royalistykos checks, agynus checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t375) K of spades (3 players)
royalistykos bets t350, agynus folds, Hero calls t350 (???)

River: (t1075) Q of hearts (2 players)
royalistykos bets t2582 all in, Hero ???
Villain was unknown for me, played like 30/5 after few hands. I didn't cbet this flop because it's waste of chips imo. Then came this turn. He bets a pot and I am really confused. Would he bet this big with KT etc.? Can he bet pot with a set that he wanted to c/r otf? I was really considering fold, but then I decided not to, cause I tought he sometimes will have just Kx or whatever (fdraw?). And otr he snapshipped, so? Thanks for responses.

hawkeyeK9
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August 31, 2011 - 3:00 pm
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Gross spot!

Couple things I like that would make your decisions easier on later streets. First off, no reason not to cbet imo. By not cbetting you are taking over pairs out of your range and inviting draws etc.. If someone makes a play and you got to fold then no big deal, you did not risk much of your stack and you have a good image of cbetting.

Second, as played on flop, I think you either got to go with it on the turn or be willing to fold to several river cards and possible river shoves since we have minimal info. Reason I say that, his pot bet on the turn shows no sign of slowing down. He could definitely be pot betting the turn with a hand he wanted to c/r flop with. There is no river essentially that would be great for u minus a couple cards and there is a flush draw on board, plus the board is scary vs sb and bb calling range. Again, cbetting on the flop alleviates a lot of this imo.

hapetimes
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September 1, 2011 - 6:54 am
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i'm also in favour of c betting this flop

checking behind gives us no information about the villains hands which makes it hard for us when we hit our turn

MartinAltman
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September 2, 2011 - 5:22 am
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I am little bit confused by your responses. I tought this is easy decision not to c-bet because:
a) In step tournaments we want to conserve our chips to later stages because we have huge edge in push/fold game.
b) Against calling stations, which I expect them to be (they flatted few hands preflop before this hand) it is tough to get folds on this flop texture. I don't know what their calling range here would be. They can flat with any pair, any draw, sometimes overcards…

c) I have some showdown value.

I know that if I c-bet and get raised here I can comfortably fold and that would be the case here probably, but generally I still don't see c-bet being profitable here. Are you c-betting here often/always? Maybe it's my leak, but I am almost never c-betting this structure against 2 opponents with this hand.

 

Anyway I would be also happy if you response to what should I do here since I didn't c-bet. For me it's still gross spot.

hawkeyeK9
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September 2, 2011 - 12:24 pm
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In this spot you are in position and the pot is so small so I am cbetting always in this particular spot. My reasons for doing this are stated above. We are not worried about shove/fold at this stage of the tourney. If you dont cbet you are essentially playing your hand face up as AJ+ since you raised MP1 and did not cbet, sometimes you are slow playing a set but not usually. They can narrow your range and you have no idea theres. You are not spewing chips with a small cbet here so talking about conserving chips does not apply to this spot imo.

As played. You have committed 475 of your 1605 stack at the start of the hand, so 30% of your stack. If you fold you are left with 20bb's. So yes it is a gross spot. You can make an argument for call or fold and I am not sure the best answer. Again, you have no info and that is due how the hand was played. I might have got it in on the turn given the draw on the board and calling such a big portion of your stack with a lot of bad possible rivers seems not good. These are just my opinions. GLGL.

hapetimes
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September 2, 2011 - 6:58 pm
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ok the game changes a bit as you stated (i didnt realise that this is a step STT)

you're right that our chips are very valuable later in the game and for this reason we shouldn't get it in early unless we're pretty sure we're way ahead

 

as played – i think it's a bit weak to just fold when we hit our turn so i'd call once and then re-evaluate the river

 

once he committs to the river it's an easy fold for you

just as you said – there's too much value in preserving our chips for when we have an edge later in the game AND we have only one pair to an over pot river shove which is almost always the losing hand

I doubt he has KJ and this is very unusual to be a busted F draw imo

FkCoolers
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September 4, 2011 - 5:51 pm
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I would just say to those who c-bet here you must two barrel the turn 100% here since this is a flop where you will get floated a lot by all sorts of hands like small pairs, broadways, 2nd pair, etc.

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