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Stack Struggles
p3dactor
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July 13, 2012 - 7:19 pm
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Biggest thing I'm trying to change in my game is to pick up chips in spots where others may not. In order to do that, have to open up my game a bit more on the aggro side of things. With that said, I'm really struggling with the 10 to 25 bb range of things. I'm posting a few hands below for discussion. By becoming more aware of stack sizes, I feel like I'm always guessing on what to do pre-flop within that stack size range. For instance, how many times do I pass up raising on the button because the BB has 12 bb or 17 bb? Am I committed to call everytime….or can I fold….is that too weak sauce? If I limit only to hands I can call with, i feel it makes me a weak ass beeeatch. What about when I have 20 to 25 bb….can I raise fold to 3 bets at that point….I feel like if I only open hands I 4 bet shove with then I limit my range….but then I also shit my pants when I get 3 bet after opening with KJs from the highjack with 20 bb and don't know what to do. What about the 15-19 bb range….do I just open shove my range here on the button, or is it too large and should just raise?

 

This is probably a leak or issue that many of us here at TPE may have…..so I thought I'd just start the discussion and put myself on shame here. Here's a couple hands to go along:

 

1) 125/250 blinds

ZMontCristo (UTG): BB = 53.6, t13395
omedick (UTG+1): BB = 49.8, t12452
iyeshua (UTG+2): BB = 178.3, t44577
milked it (MP1): BB = 42.5, t10629
mrquickie32 (MP2): BB = 38.2, t9549
nilsok (CO): BB = 17.7, t4424
Hero (BTN): BB = 21.5, t5377
HenneDji (SB): BB = 173.1, t43280
AkilaN222 (BB): BB = 15.1, t3778

Pre Flop: (t600) Hero is BTN with 9 of clubs T of clubs
6 folds, Hero raises to t625, 1 fold, AkilaN222 raises to t3753 all in, Hero: I raised with apprx. 22 bb here knowing bb had a reshove stack…am I committed to calling here? Should I not be opening here if I can't call his 3bet all in? Am I just a big *****?

 

2) 50/100 blinds

mov_21 (UTG): t1309 13.09 BBs

JT20p (UTG+1): t4020 40.20 BBs
rallaren666 (UTG+2): t2906 29.06 BBs
AJAnickI (MP1): t3553 35.53 BBs
Tiltn_Mafks (MP2): t7094 70.94 BBs
FortunaHome (CO): t2060 20.60 BBs
Hero (BTN): t2272 22.72 BBs
Heerrie (SB): t3000 30 BBs
1stl0gic (BB): t3235 32.35 BBs

Pre Flop: (t150) Hero is BTN with 4 of hearts A of clubs
6 folds, Hero….with 22 BB, can I open/fold here to a BB 3 bet? Or again, should I only be open hands I'm going to 4 bet shove to a 3 bet?

 

3) 125/250 BB (25 ante)

gjwanke (CO): BB = 16.8, t4188
omedick (BTN): BB = 52.3, t13077
iyeshua (SB): BB = 154.5, t38635
TryIfYouCant (BB): BB = 25.3, t6318
mrquickie32 (UTG): BB = 40.2, t10049
nilsok (UTG+1): BB = 8.7, t2187
Hero (UTG+2): BB = 23.5, t5877
HenneDji (MP1): BB = 156.7, t39178
AkilaN222 (MP2): BB = 15.6, t3903

Pre Flop: (t600) Hero is UTG+2 with 5 of hearts A of hearts

So here's a spot where before I may have folded cuz I suck ass….but again I hesitate here, one because of position, but two because I have about 23 bb and because there are 2 reshove stacks behind me with 15 and 16 bb….so again, do I Raise/fold to 3 bet, open fold, or can I fold to a 3 bet shove? What if my hand was 77 instead of A5s….do I shit my pants with a flip…do I have to call the 3bet shove?

terbet11
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July 14, 2012 - 1:32 am
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I think that hands 1 and 3 you can fold these hands pre due to your stack size and the 3 bet shoving stacks behind.  With the stack sizes of 20-22 bb you are going to want to use that stack to do the 3 bet shoving due to the fold equity you have.  IMO I think anytime you are opening with a stack of 19-22bb you are opening for value, looking for villains to spazz with worse.  Now this may not be the case due to table dynamics, etc, but in many case you are just spewing chips opening with these hands.

 

Suited aces and suited connectors are pretty to look at, but in many cases they are only going to get you in trouble.  With the A5hh hand, just pretend they are pocket 4s…will you open this in ep?  Probably not due to the fact they play terrible post.  Also, if you call a 3 bet shove with a5hh you are no better than a 70/30 dog like evertime.  No Villain is going to 3 bet shove over an ep opener with worse.  The bottom of my range here in opening is A9ss and again that is player and table dependent. 

 

With the 89cc this is a better hand to 3 bet shove with or squeeze shove with.  This is due to the fact you have fold equity and if called it flops well to broadway hands.

 

With hand #2, I don't mind you opening here to steal because you are making the blinds make a decision with their stacks and you have an ace blocker.  If you get get 3 bet shoved on, you can safely fold and still have 20bb.  if called, depending on flop, you can c bet like .35-.40 flop and take it down, or you can even check to sd with ace hig.  In most cases this is just a steal spot imo.

 

REMEMBER…..before any hand you play you need to ask yourelf, “what am I trying to accomplish with this hand”..try not ot open and not be prepared to a villains move.  For example, if you open with 26bb and ther are 4 to play, you are going to know who you are calling or folding to due to their stack sizes. 

 

Best of luck at the tables!

p3dactor
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July 14, 2012 - 2:04 am
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Thanks terbet….

So let’s focus on hand one. This is where I really get frustrated about what to do….here I am on the button with about 22 bigs…..I know I’ve got a 3bet all-in stack in the BB with 15 bigs, but does that mean I shut down here without premiums because of my stack and his? This is what leads me to chip down to 10-14 bigs just waiting. I realize with reads and table dynamics this decision becomes easier around raising and folding, but at the $4 or $5 buy- in level, it’s a total guess with randoms.

Not disagreeing with your assessment, because believe me when sitting there staring at the screen that’s what I’m thinking too. But where’s that line between spewing chips and being too much of a nit and allowing yourself to just blind down to push-fold scenarios….which is where I’m trying to change.

….thoughts? TPE pros’s….help a brotha’ out!

terbet11
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July 14, 2012 - 2:22 am
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p3dactor said:

Thanks terbet….

So let's focus on hand one. This is where I really get frustrated about what to do….here I am on the button with about 22 bigs…..I know I've got a 3bet all-in stack in the BB with 15 bigs, but does that mean I shut down here without premiums because of my stack and his? This is what leads me to chip down to 10-14 bigs just waiting. I realize with reads and table dynamics this decision becomes easier around raising and folding, but at the $4 or $5 buy- in level, it's a total guess with randoms.

Not disagreeing with your assessment, because believe me when sitting there staring at the screen that's what I'm thinking too. But where's that line between spewing chips and being too much of a nit and allowing yourself to just blind down to push-fold scenarios….which is where I'm trying to change.

….thoughts? TPE pros's….help a brotha' out!

In this spot, there are opportunities to open steal, because you are ultimately puting the bb to a descison with his stack.  Also, depends on where you are in the tourney…are you on the bubble? Or has the bubble popped?  Is the BB a fish, tight, etc. However, you do see a lot of villains in this buy in level (which i play mostly) call just because they are “priced in”, then 2/3 time you miss the pot and the error is compunded.  I think in many instances, it is better to just open shove then open…they can only call with the top of their range, and in many cases you are scooping the blinds and antes in doing so.

p3dactor
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July 14, 2012 - 8:16 pm
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Was watching Cougars vid of a member hand history review, and I took a lot from spots where he pointed we should be taking to build a stack. I think I’m ( and probably others) putting too much value on tournament life vs building a stack.

SJOHN11
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July 16, 2012 - 12:37 pm
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Hand 1 – just fold it pre. Only other option is to ship it in pre but i think with 21bb u can wait for better spot.

Hand 2 – I would open for the steal and fold to a shove.

Hand 3 – I just fold due to ur positon.

Nokaman
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July 16, 2012 - 2:39 pm
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I'm opening the first 2 automatically.

3rd one can probably be a fold.

 

Raise/fold in both spots.  You're just using your position and their stack size against them.  With the T9, if he shoves (which isn't nearly as often as you think to make this a fold) then you can easily fold.  Only when you are getting 2-1, which is typically against a 10bb stack, are u forced to call.  Your cards are pretty irrelevant, as he isn't going to flat much.  If he does, you have a hand that flops really well which is always a plus.

 

But again, don't get bothered/discouraged when people shove over your opens.  Just keep at it, it's going to work a large percentage of the time.  And when you stay active, then you when you do pick up a hand you're going to get them to shove the Ax, broadways, pairs, etc. etc. that you dominate.

 

And as for raise sizing, a min-raise gets the same job done.  I'd definitely try to incorporate it into your game as your standard open post-ante.  If he is going to shove he's going to shove, and 500 accomplishes the same thing as 625.  It allows you to open/fold that much more over the course of a tourney.  Might not seem like a lot but it can add up.

bennymacca
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July 16, 2012 - 7:42 pm
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I kinda like jamming even up to 25bb here instead of opening. Raise-folding is just so weak given you have exactly the right stack for them to be doing it to you with any two basically.

I think the key is to cut down your opens and focus on resteal spots with that stack, but given you are button In hands 1 and 2 I think it is still fine to jam these. Hand 3 is a fold imo

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