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Speculating with 8Ts from BTN - Should I be in this pot>
wager9
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March 8, 2015 - 9:04 pm
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WSOP Circuit LIVE – $365 Buy in.

Stack: Eff stack is mine at 6400. (V has about 10k starting stack as it is early).

Hero Image: Its level 2 and I’ve been playing pretty TAG. I got sucked out a few mins back AK vs AJ and lost 4 k or so in that hand.

V image: 35yr old Asian guy. Seems fairly active. HAs not showed down a whole lot yet but seems to be in a decent amount of pots.

Blinds: 75-150

Pre Flop: V raises UTG+1. HERO calls on BTN with 8Tdd. BB calls.
POt = 1300

Flop: 6d 6s 2d

BB checks. V bets 800. Hero calls. BB folds.

Pot= 2900
Turn: 4c
V bets 1100. Hero calls.

Pot= 5100
River: 9d
V bets 3000 (I had about 3k and change left)…

This is a hand where I wanted to mix up my play a bit and speculate in position. I felt that my hand would be somewhat disuised throughout and if I hit I could get doubled up thru this V if had what he was repping. Regardless of results…is this a hand I should not be involved with IYO?

folding_aces_pre_yo
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March 9, 2015 - 10:21 am
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stacks are a bit to shallow to flat with speculative hands. What you should do is construct a flat calling range. I just don't think this is good enough hand for it , your implied odds and the odds are not great for it. Since your in good postion i'd much rather 3-bet or just  fold. 

 

post flop , flop call is fine as played,  if we raise there's not much we can rep,  apart from big pairs of course, As for the turn calling again is fine , getting good odds on the call. river is a shove imo.

Kalculater
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March 9, 2015 - 6:11 pm
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Preflop is too speculative against an EP raiser who you do not have a solid read on.

 

Flop call is not wonderful as this board favours his range over our range. Raising would most likely be worse.

 

Turn call should be a fold.

 

EDIT: removed river comment. did not realise we made a flush. misread the hand.

Foucault

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March 9, 2015 - 11:42 pm
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If by “speculating” you mean calling just hoping to make a huge hand, that isn't something you should ever do without a pocket pair. It's simply too hard to make huge hands. When you make calls like this, it has to be against a player whose range is wide enough for you to sometimes win at showdown when you flop one pair and for you to be able to play aggressively when you flop a draw. Look at what happened here: you put money in from behind pre-flop for the privilege of putting in more from behind on the flop and turn, only to win maybe as much as 6000 (barely twice what it cost you to make the flush) when you're lucky enough to river a flush. Note also that there is nothing concealed about your hand – everyone can see there are three diamonds on the board – and that you still aren't too confident that you have the best hand. Like, I doubt you can profitably jam the river. So yes, fold pre-flop and take this as a cautionary tale against playing poker like it's a slot machine, as Ed Miller would say.

wager9
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March 10, 2015 - 12:35 am
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If by “speculating” you mean calling just hoping to make a huge hand, that isn’t something you should ever do without a pocket pair. It’s simply too hard to make huge hands. When you make calls like this, it has to be against a player whose range is wide enough for you to sometimes win at showdown when you flop one pair and for you to be able to play aggressively when you flop a draw. Look at what happened here: you put money in from behind pre-flop for the privilege of putting in more from behind on the flop and turn, only to win maybe as much as 6000 (barely twice what it cost you to make the flush) when you’re lucky enough to river a flush. Note also that there is nothing concealed about your hand – everyone can see there are three diamonds on the board – and that you still aren’t too confident that you have the best hand. Like, I doubt you can profitably jam the river. So yes, fold pre-flop and take this as a cautionary tale against playing poker like it’s a slot machine, as Ed Miller would say.

Andrew… this makes sense. Thank you..question though. Admittedly, I am a touch confused now about playing suited connectors (and one gappers) in LP. Are you saying that I should never be calling in position with a suited/ connected hand in LP vs an EP rsiser (unless the EP rzrs range is very wide)??? Like… I thought that was the whole gig with suited connectors; was to get in and “speculate”- or am I to understand you as saying “yes its fine to call with 8Ts but only if you have showdown value if the TEN (or 8) hits vs this V…OR..if I am willing to play this aggressively on the flop with the flush draw”?

folding_aces_pre_yo
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March 10, 2015 - 8:07 am
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@Wager , you can call in postion with suited/connected hands/suited 1/2 gappers in LP vs an EP raise even if his pre flop raising range is not wide and when stacks are deep (even better). For instance if you have a read that v is extremly tight and predictable and opens up with TT+ and AQs+ because you have such a precise read and since stacks are deep you can call on the BTN with a hand like Theart 9heart or QheartTheart

 

post flop you would be able to play pretty much perfectly against him as you are able to identify a clear upper limit on your opponent’s range (capped range) and you can put them into really tough spots whether you do make your hand or you don't.

Foucault

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March 10, 2015 - 2:01 pm
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folding_aces_pre_yo said:

@Wager , you can call in postion with suited/connected hands/suited 1/2 gappers in LP vs an EP raise even if his pre flop raising range is not wide and when stacks are deep (even better). For instance if you have a read that v is extremly tight and predictable and opens up with TT+ and AQs+ because you have such a precise read and since stacks are deep you can call on the BTN with a hand like Theart 9heart or QheartTheart

 

post flop you would be able to play pretty much perfectly against him as you are able to identify a clear upper limit on your opponent’s range (capped range) and you can put them into really tough spots whether you do make your hand or you don't.

The “when you don't” part is really important, though. If you end up consistently calling or folding any time you can't beat top pair and rarely or never bluff, you'll have a hard time showing a profit no matter how deep you are.

derSchwartz
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March 10, 2015 - 3:02 pm
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Is it also ok to complete the SB in a multiway limped pot or to defend in the BB against one late position minraiser (with or without callers) when over 35BB with suited connectors and such, especially if raising is not better for some reason?  I suppose you would have to be willing to play poker and not slots after the flop but is it essentially ok to sometimes mine for twopair+ in those spots?

Foucault

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March 10, 2015 - 5:45 pm
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Yes, these hands should often be called when you are getting great odds. You can be much more selective about how you continue post if you are getting great odds pre, though i still don't think playing slots should be the default.

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