April 3, 2015
Played the Gothenburgh Spring poker week main event yesterday, and the following hand came up in level 4
Everybody started with 30k chips, level 4 was 150/300 with a 25 ante.
I had basically been folding for the entire first 3 levels, experiencing probably one of the longest stretches of dry cards so far in my poker playing career, and sitting at a loose and goofy table with players showing up with 52o in 3 bet pots at showdown etc, I was feeling a little frustrated.
I had my headphones, but the rulings in that casino turned out to be no headphones allowed, so this was also a little tilting.
So, the hand:
I have 32k,
I am UTG with J(h) 10(h) and I raise to 725
UTG+1 (25k) makes it 2300, UTG+2 (covers me) instantly calls and it’s folded to me.
Given my hands good flopability, I elect to call here for 1575 more.
The flop comes: K(h) Q(h) 4(c)
Basically I feel like I flopped the nuts after hours upon hours of folding.
And here is probably the first big mistake.
I check, UTG+1 bets 4600, UTG+2 calls, and I call getting 3,5:1
The turn is 7(c)
I check. UTG+1 shoves for about pot, 18.750 and UTG+2 tank calls.
Now, in this spot sitting here on my couch, this is a clear fold for me. However, tanked and called with what I figured was a 15 card out draw with about 29-30% chance of completing getting 3:1 odds and the prospects of being chip leader.
Several large errors here as far as I am concerned. First, many of my “outs” can be dirty outs, as one of my opponents could be drawing to a bigger flush, have a set, rendering the board pairing hearts as useless outs etc.
Second, why risk 60bb on a draw leaving me only 24bb behind if it misses? It’s a tourney with a good structure, and playing 84bb vs 24bb at this stage with these players is obviously more pluss ev than praying to hit my str8, flush, or straight flush.
However, in the heat of the moment I had a brain meltdown and called.
Even after taking time to think. I am still utterly disapointed with myself for this, almost to the point of thinking what am I doing even playing poker. 🙂
So this post is not a “please tell me what a stupid fish I am” but more a request as to what kind of mental preparation/study could you recommend to get past these brain meltdowns.
By the way, both the opponents had AK, one of the suited to clubs, and the river brought the backdoor club to knock out one of them. I obviously folded to the nuts’ shove on the river saving 7500 chips to whittle down and bust a few levels later.
Frode
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
I really don't think this is as bad as you're telling yourself it is. Ultimately if you were getting 3 to 1 and you had any better than about 12 outs (which you almost certainly did, since most of your opponents' flush draws are blocked by your JT) then the call was most likely profitable. It's really awkward, but it's probably just about okay.
However, there are two questions that you need to ask and answer here:
1) Is there a more profitable way to play the hand?
2) Is the call profitable enough to justify risking 60bb of future edge?
The answer to 1) is probably 'yes'. I would prefer check-shoving the flop. Your best chance of fold equity here is to take advantage of the fact that UTG1 is in a tough spot when deciding to call with UTG2 left to act behind him, and UTG2's range is fairly capped since they would most likely 4-bet KK or QQ preflop and might not flat 44. You also give yourself the chance to see both future cards when called in this spot, and with an OERFD here you really want to make sure you can see both those cards. Check-shoving might seem counter-intuitive when we consider the answer to 2), but the addition of a decent chunk of folding equity makes a huge difference – picking up almost 20k on the flop without a showdown even a small portion of the time is an amazing result for us here.
The answer to 2) is most likely 'no', which is why I would probably fold here. Once we get a shove and a call on the turn it's at least fairly likely that some of our straight/flush/royal draws are blocked since there are going to be a lot of AAs and AKs out there, plus UTG1's range starts to look a little heavier on KK and QQ, so the 4h and 7h might be dead. I think if I believed I had a solid edge on the table at deep stacks, I'd fold, and preserve that extra 60bb – our edge doesn't increase that much if we go from 80bb to 300bb since everyone else stays the same size, but if we go down to 24bb, our edge drops significantly (most likely, anyway).
I would recommend running this one through CardRunnersEV with exact numbers – it's an interesting hand and the results could provide some specifics that might help us establish whether the call or the check-shove on the flop is more profitable.
November 24, 2013
I dont like the PF call. “good flopability” does not really apply to 3bet pots since you need to make at least two pair or better to have any confidence in your hand and this is not gonna happen very often plus youre OOP. Or in other words you have huge negative implied odds since in a 3bet pot your top pairs or even flushes are not unlikely to be up against something better. If you know villains are 3betting very wide its a different story.
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