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Home Forum MTT Poker Strategy size of 3bet with KK

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size of 3bet with KK

YoungManiac1

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January 11, 2014

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January 11, 2014 - 7:02 pm

Hello to everyone. First, I have to say that I only learned English in school and while watching tv, so I'm sorry if I make some big grammar mistakes. Second, I'm playing poker for like less then a year, and just few days after joining on tournamentpokeredge I improved my game alot.

So many times I lost most of my stack with KK in situation when utg raises, someone in middle position calls, and then I re raise with KK, player from middle position just calls and then hits A on flop. Im wondering should i make bigger 3bets, especially when im out of position, or what?

First example(buy in: 4,40$): I was on button with KK and I had 98k chips, blinds were 1000/2000(about 20players left from 650). UTG player raised 4000(he had 23k), middle position player called(he had 34k) and I re raised to 10 000. Utg folded, middle position called. Flop A-8-3, two hearts. I cant just check back on that flop? Or can I? So there was 29000 in pot. Middle position guy checked and I made a 12k cbet, and he just called. There was 53k in pot, and the middle position guy had only about 12k left. On turn i hitted a nut flush draw so I shoved, he showed me A-8. He took that pot, and in next hand against that same opponent i lost with a set, when he called flop, and huge turn bet, with a flush draw. In next few hands i was out and i didnt make a final table, and just before KK i was in top 5 with chips.

Second example(Buy in: 11$) : I was on BB with 17k with KK, blinds were 600/1200. Middle position(34k stack) raised 2400, guy next to him calls (43k) , there was 7950 in pot. Should i have shoved with KK? Anyway i raised it to 4455. Both players called, and flop was 9-7-A. 15k in pot i made a 5k cbet, first guy folded, second guy went all in, and i folded. In that point i was ITM and on next hand i was out.

Today, my KK was cracked 3/4 times. Every time someone called and Ace was on flop. Should I make much bigger raise since im not too lucky, and its awful to play KK out of position when ace is on board.

I hope that i will get some good answers 🙂

DannyN13

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January 11, 2014 - 11:13 pm

First of all you have to get rid of your losing/unlucky mentality in poker. I can tell by your post that you are being results oreinted which is not a good thing. In poker it is all about what is the right play/sizing that will work for you in the long run. In the first example your sizing is perfect because it gives them room to shove or flat and you are getting value the times that they flat and get married to a pair that you have beat or the times they try to bluff you after flatting. In the 2nd example I would shove because #1 It looks the weakest, #2 you would shove the weaker part of your range from 15 bbs so you should shove the top as well instead of being exploitable. Hope this helps!

icantmtt

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January 12, 2014 - 3:41 am

Hard to avoid looking strong in first example so maybe just shove and try reaping AJ AQ AK ATs small pairs etc. personally I think raise is too small 22k in pot and 6k for them to call. If we raise to like 16k we commit so might as well shove. Maybe utg calls w 99 or something. Defo folds out A8.

Shove second example, re: Danny’s reasoning

CCuster 911

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January 13, 2014 - 4:23 pm

Sizing depends on a mixture of things.

1. Stack Sizes
2. Villain tendencies
3. Your 3 betting range(not your particular hand)
4. Your position
5. Number of players that called

Some could argue that how comfortable you are post flop is also a consideration, but after a certain level this becomes negligible. If you are uncomfortable you can get away with shoving stacks that most people will simply 3 bet, as you may be undervaluing post.

Some hints:
3 bet more OOP
3 bet more for every opponent
3 bet bigger against stations(and have a smaller 3 bet range)

I would default, in your position at lower stakes, to 2.5x the original raise + 1 more OR for every caller.

So in your 4.40 example with a OR of 4k, I would make it 2.5x4k = 10k + 4k for the other flat caller or 14k. OOP I would simply add a BB.

Once you get more comfortable and against tougher opponents I would change this to about 2.2-2.3xOR + .8-.9 OR for each caller.

For Coaching - ccuster911@gmail.com - HH Reviews/Leak Finder(HEM or PT)/Concept Discussion

Foucault

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January 14, 2014 - 8:10 am

The biggest problem here is the way you are thinking about the purpose of a re-raise. When you have KK, your goal is not to ensure that you win the pot, it isn’t to make people fold any random Ax they may have, it isn’t to avoid having to play post-flop, etc. You have a really, really good hand that doesn’t come along often, and your goal should be to get people to put money as much money as possible into the pot with hands worse than yours. That can happen either before or after the flop, though as you point out KK is strong pre-flop than post.

Sometimes KK isn’t the best hand. Sometimes that’s because there’s an A on the flop, other times people flop sets or were dealt AA. It happens and you just have to deal with it. It doesn’t mean you did anything wrong, anything more than getting your money in with the best hand and losing to a bad beat indicates that you did something wrong.

The short answer to your question about how to size a 3-bet with KK is “raise as much as you think they’ll call”. The longer answer is that you should watch my series “Getting Paid”. Some of the material may be over your head, but try to get a general sense of how you should be thinking about likely best hands and planning to get value from them.

MovesLikeDarvin

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January 23, 2014 - 12:00 pm

again everybody seems to be saying the right thing except DannyN13.

but seriously, seems like you did the right thing in both examples, except probably cbetting the Axx board with KK in example one was misguided.

shoving in the second example seems by far the best.