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September 14, 2014
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#Game No : 572379381
***** 888poker Hand History for Game 572379381 *****
$700/$1,400 Blinds No Limit Holdem – ***
Tournament #76562004 $2.70 + $0.30 – Table #19 9 Max (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: Madraswala ( $74,775 )
Seat 2: SamboFxS ( $15,675 )
Seat 3: haideee35 ( $52,257 )
Seat 4: prepeleag ( $32,460 )
Seat 5: Extra__large ( $37,385 )
Seat 6: shaddock92 ( $104,463 )
Seat 7: Rusti09 ( $29,018 )
Seat 9: london_ace ( $15,106 )
Seat 10: ianworrall ( $86,541 )
Rusti09 posts ante [$175]
Extra__large posts ante [$175]
ianworrall posts ante [$175]
SamboFxS posts ante [$175]
haideee35 posts ante [$175]
Madraswala posts ante [$175]
shaddock92 posts ante [$175]
prepeleag posts ante [$175]
london_ace posts ante [$175]
Rusti09 posts small blind [$700]
london_ace posts big blind [$1,400]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to london_ace [ 4
, J ]
ianworrall calls [$1,400]
Madraswala calls [$1,400]
SamboFxS folds
haideee35 folds
prepeleag folds
Extra__large folds
shaddock92 folds
Rusti09 calls [$700]
london_ace checks
** Dealing flop ** [ 5, 3
, A
]
Rusti09 checks
london_ace checks
ianworrall checks
Madraswala checks
** Dealing turn ** [ 9 ]
Rusti09 checks
london_ace bets [$13,531]
ianworrall calls [$13,531]
Madraswala folds
Rusti09 folds
** Dealing river ** [ T ]
hey
I was new to the table so no reads.
when the flop gets checked round i discounted my opponents to have Ax in their range. I guess it would be okay if they have checked back a weak ax here though , so i guess we cant fully discount it. On the turn we improve to a combo draw , we do have decent equity even if called by Ax. I also think some hands that have us beat might fold like pocket pairs.
thoughts?
cheers.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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This is like 3x pot? You might be better off going bet turn/shove river to pick up value from V’s call-folds. Would you ever play a value hand this way?
May 20, 2015
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I think it’s going to be hard to profit from 3x pot bluffs into 4 way pots in general, especially at the micros where people don’t fold. Whenever you bluff but would get the same result with a smaller bet you are wasting chips. I think an A can check the flop as it’s often hard to get value on this sort of flop so they may slow play. I like a check/raise line here to set up a river shove. I think this more credibly represents the top of your range. If it gets checked round that’s fine as well.
September 14, 2014
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Sorry i should have wrote the total pot size. The total pot size was $7,115, so that’s around 2x pot. I’d play my value hand this was as well yeah. I’m assuming IF the the shove were going to be for 3x pot it would be better if we bet 1/3 on the turn and shove on all rivers? I mean if v has an Ax he would of got it in on the turn. Would we have enough fold equity though? when we shove river? say we bet like $2391 ott (1/3 the pot)and v calls the total pot size on the river would be $11957. hero would have $12715 behind which still has enough fold equity.
I must say that usually when i have like a 10-15bb stack i dont usually get to the turn or river with that amount , i tend to get my money in on flops before the turn and river when i’m a short stack if that makes sense? so thats why i just shoved turn in the spot above and i think thats fine given that its a 2x the pot shove. If it was 3x the pot , i probably would have bet turn and probably c/f river or may shoved river lol.
for instance yeah lets say i had AK with a 15bb stack size i raise it up get called by bb flop is KT2 , v checks , pot is like $10,000 , i’d just shove flop , i’d probably also shove KK/TT/22 or any monster hand. I’d also shove AQ/AJ KQ/KJ. Probably checking back Tx and my air (if i have any). I think thats a mistake though i reckon with a 15bb stack u can still c-bet flop and shove turn at the very least.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Even with an SPR of 2 it’s generally going to be better to split the betting over two streets. Any time that you are playing a polarized range and V a range of mostly bluff-catchers, you’ll maximize your EV by betting the same fraction of the pot on multiple streets.
Think of it this way: if you really had no fold equity on river after betting 60% pot or whatever on the turn, that would mean that V is folding too often to your turn bet, essentially giving you 2xpot worth of fold equity for a cost of just 60% of the pot. That’s tremendously valuable leverage! You’d be much better off just making the turn bet and then shutting down if called, rather than risking 3x as much by shoving with your bluffs.
Even if he plays correctly and has both a call-once and a call-twice range, both your double barrel bluffs and your value hands will benefit from the range of hands that will call-fold but not call a shove.
September 14, 2014
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I’ve understood some of what you’ve written above. What i dont get is when you said ” that would mean that V is folding to often to your turn bet. How do we know v is folding too often to our turn bet though? The good thing is if we bet turn and he calls we can still c/f rivers which saves us losing chips for the times we are called on the turn.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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If he always calls river after calling turn, then his range for calling 2/3 pot on turn = his range for calling 2x pot across two streets. Likewise, his range for folding to 2x pot = his range for folding to 2/3 pot. So, you’re getting a tremendous amount of leverage on the 2/3 pot bet, and with your bluffs, you’d be better off betting 2/3 and then giving up.
September 14, 2014
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I see, thank you. 
September 14, 2014
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So in this hand yeah you do know that we have like 9bb. if we bet 2/3 of the pot (which is $4743) into $7115 that would be a 3bb ish bet which we would leave us 5-6bb ($9000 stacksize) so when we get to the river the pot is going to be like pretty big , around $16601. I just thought that because there’s so much money in the pot shoving here for 2x pot cant be that bad OTT with our draw because even when we are called we have decent equity. If hero shoves for 3x pot i reckon thats really bad as we are risking too much, i’d prefer the line to bet turn/give up river. as for 2x pot shove , do you think we should also be taking that line bet/turn give up rivers? leaving us 9000 behind (after we’ve made that bet for 2/3 ott) when the pot will be like 16k ish otr.
cheers.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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OK, so maybe you bet 60% pot on both streets. The goal should be to bet roughly the same fraction of the pot on both streets with some hands, and to have some range that bets turn and gives up river. Are you saying you would never bluff turn and then give up river, or just not with this hand? Because the former is a mistake exploited by any opponent who always calls river after calling turn, which seems to be something you think is quite possible.
September 14, 2014
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Of course i’ll bluff turn if the situation warrants it , again it really depends on how wide our bluffing range should be on the turn. I’m think our turn bluffing range should be pretty wide. Would u find it easy to construct a range , a bet turn fold river range and a bet turn and shove river range? I think this hand in particular , you could bet turn and fold river. I’m not to sure if you would shove river once you bet turn here though , as its very unlikely v is folding an ace. The thing is though dont you think v will likely gii ott if his range consist of Ax?
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