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February 5, 2015
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Hey TPE’ers,
Hope that replay works…first time I’ve used it. No doubt I made a fundamental blunder, I feel like “Fundamental Blunder” should be my middle name sometimes…which leads me nicely onto my hand…
…which might well also be a fundamental blunder.
Initially I got pretty depressed, but I reviewed it and I’m not so sure.
I believe there was 3000/8000 left with 1500 paid…? Something like that
Obviously the villain in the hand is somebody I’m aware of… Marty Mathis. I used to play against him when he was more of a 180 an reg., he’s moved on to greener pastures I gather. Anyway, I took a look at his graph. It’s pretty much a mirror image of mine 
. I wish that was a joke. In any case, he was one of 2 regs. I recognized at the table. Probably I should’ve kept well away from him, especially OOP.
Ah well, my thinking was that with an SPR of almost 1-1 after his c-bet, I should get it in here. His c-bet looked weak to me at the time…but I’m unsure why. It’s almost half-pot. Something about the timing felt weak. Probably he’s such a boss that it was supposed to feel off. I put him on a strong ace…wishful thinking maybe.
Appreciate the advice in advance.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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This is probably a decent spot to get it in preflop. I would think it’s fairly close since I doubt Marty is 3-betting you light that often if he knows nothing about you, but I would think the EV of shoving is probably better than the EV of flatting OOP and trying to play well postflop vs a good player.
As played, I don’t think there’s much you can do except check-shove flop. More or less just a cooler unless there’s some reason for you to think Marty will be 3-betting you super tight here, in which case neither 4-bet shoving nor flatting are good. In reality I think he’s going to 3-bet/fold at least some hands here and probably 3-bet/call all his AK and maybe some AQs, depending on how he thinks you’re playing.
February 5, 2015
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Thanks for the thoughts Matt.
What is the advantage in 4-betting pre as opposed to seeing the flop board? Don’t we gain more by getting that information on the flop before pulling the trigger? I suppose if he thinks I am way tight he might fold QQ…? I doubt it though.
He probably does recognize me as some kind of a reg., we have a little history but from way way back when he was already a crusher and I was recreational whiskey drinking waster who played literally until I couldn’t even see what cards I had, falling asleep into my keyboard or soup most nights whilst watching Dog The Bounty Hunter.
Yeah, that’s how I started out in poker.
I dread to think what kinds of notes he has on me!
February 5, 2015
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I didn’t mean my graph was the same as Lipo’s…
I meant if you placed a mirror under his graph the reflection would look like my graph…
…downwards.
December 30, 2015
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The issue I see with a flop shove is that only better hands call and the rest fold. The shove has to be meant to shut it down then right? Shoving pre, at least we get max value from hands like AK and AQ
…but what about calling the flop to maximize value?…Call the flop targeting AK, AQ and draws. Granted there are some turns that make us fold if we are taregting say KQs+. This turn is a blank though for V’s range IMO so I’d likely c/r-shove but maybe call it down, but I’m having trouble pausing the replayer…are we always AI on the turn and if not how much is left on the river, and can we fold if an A, K, or Q comes and V 3-barrels AI on the river?
The problem is pretty much all pairs are bad for us on this flop. Under-pairs made sets and overs have us drawing to sets and backdoor straights and flushes. We need V to have KQs+ right?
Thoughts?
February 5, 2015
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Thanks FX,
Well yes you certainly gave me food for thought. Getting max value from big unpaired hands pre…I can see the value in that.
I pretty much don’t like my play the more I think about it. Quite honestly I’m not sure I even thought about what my shove was trying to achieve here. Too true that only better call and worse fold. I just figured V was c-betting with a range I beat OTF, but because I am only called by better I hate the shove. I see why shoving pre is better, although I still don’t like it.
I just thought at the time folding my tens seemed weak vs. his range for c-betting, and I knew he was capable of barrelling with not much, and I didn’t want to call off 2 streets then fold OTR. So yes, I was trying to shut it down.
I guess the lesson is: if you see a boss at your table, don’t try to play a big pot vs. them oop.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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The Riceman said
I guess the lesson is: if you see a boss at your table, don’t try to play a big pot vs. them oop.
Actually I think the problem is that you didn’t try to play a big pot vs him pre-flop. I agree with ginger about getting it in pre. As played, I’m fine with your post-flop line. It’s not high-value, but neither is check-folding. You just don’t have a lot of good options at this point.
You can’t just avoid confrontations with good players. What you can and should avoid is trying to do exploitive things against them, and it’s important to keep in mind that not going for thin value, not bluffing with good bluffing hands, etc are all exploitive.
February 5, 2015
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I love you man,
I thought I was theoretical toast there Andrew, and you took out your knife, and scraped off my charcoal!
Darn right brother! It was a tough spot!
I actually came across this spot tonight. I freakin’ well called man! And heck yeah! I got called by pocket 3’s!
(SPOILER) Sadly, V made a set of 3’s and busted my ass!
Anyway I had a whiskey, in all seriousness I really figured this for a very simple “yes/no” hand. It’s amazing to me how a seemingly simple spot can be dissected in this way. (I was tempted to say “thus” but I resisted!).
Sincerely, thank you all for your input. Really enjoying your current SCOOP series Andrew…and your KO series is next Matt!
February 5, 2015
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Well I just walked to the shop…
Maybe I am wrong it was a tough spot…I sould’ve shoved pre…
I really like the forum and the inputs I get.
Thanks guys.
MovieFX you are a great source of advice also.
I am fairly comfortable with my push/fold game, but this deeper stack tourney play I am still learning.
How about just folding to his c-bet and continuing in the T with 27 BB’s or whatever?
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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The Riceman said
How about just folding to his c-bet and continuing in the T with 27 BB’s or whatever?
Too risky.
December 30, 2015
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The Riceman said
….MovieFX you are a great source of advice also.
….
Eww, don’t say that! I’m still fumbling through the dark with outstretched hands trying to make sense of what I’m feeling. …But, thanks! I’m happy if my musings invoke something useful…just…please don’t take it as advice 
February 5, 2015
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ok FX,
I was slightly inebriated, if that is how you spell it.
But I was out for the day in my truck, and I had a friend out with me who is a veteran gambler, and we both agreed your thoughts here were spot on.
I was watching some WSOP footage and this spot came up with some bosses including Mizrachi…I forget who the other dude was, and he shoved those…I think it was 9’s pre in just this spot.
I had a wry smile on my face as I realised I had moved up a notch in my tournament poker skill base!
Previous to this thread, that would simply not have occurred to me as an optimal line.
With regards to “fumbling around in the dark with outstretched hands” or however you put it…at least you have arms.
If I am to paint a similar picture of me…I am an amorphous blind blob of idiocy slithering around the basement of basic poker knowledge, whilst haemorrhaging dollar bills out of my incontinent ass.
February 5, 2015
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Maybe that is a slight exaggeration. Certainly it was true a couple of years ago. And in big field deeper stacked tournament poker it is still sometimes how I feel.
The feedback one gets in these forums is brilliant.
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