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shove or fold UTG with KJs?
folding_aces_pre_yo
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February 8, 2016 - 5:41 pm
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#Game No : 758654137
***** 888poker Hand History for Game 758654137 *****
$250/$500 Blinds No Limit Holdem – ***
Tournament #77171733 Free 10 Max (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: mark212818 ( $4,780 )
Seat 2: JRMAC14 ( $33,210 )
Seat 3: Ros1415 ( $3,336 )
Seat 4: RamjitBasdeo ( $3,860 )
Seat 5: kassabubu ( $4,056 )
Seat 6: DedHassan ( $30,020 )
Seat 7: Ignored_Hero ( $5,862 )
Seat 9: huragan16_BQ ( $5,005 )
Seat 10: london_ace ( $6,860 )
huragan16_BQ posts ante [$60]
RamjitBasdeo posts ante [$60]
DedHassan posts ante [$60]
london_ace posts ante [$60]
JRMAC14 posts ante [$60]
kassabubu posts ante [$60]
Ignored_Hero posts ante [$60]
mark212818 posts ante [$60]
Ros1415 posts ante [$60]
Ignored_Hero posts small blind [$250]
huragan16_BQ posts big blind [$500]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to london_ace [ Kclub, Jclub ]
london_ace ??

 

hey

 

This is a $3 turbo buy-in, field is very soft. Shove or fold?  

 

cheers.

SIGABA
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February 9, 2016 - 1:02 am
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Here is a push fold chart you can use for spots exactly like this:

Push / Fold Chart

 

Here is a video I made showing exactly how to use it:

Push / Fold Chart Explained

 

Hope this helps, let me know what you think.  I would like to hear feedback from a reg like yourself 🙂

smallcat66
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February 9, 2016 - 1:13 pm
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Thank you SIGABA for explaining the push/fold chart. I have been using the chart but wasn’t sure if the % Antes was calculated on the small or the big blind.

As regards the OP’s query, whether to push or fold is always going to be close and often your decision will be determined by the stage of the tournament and if there is money jumps to be gained by outlasting some shorter stacks.

folding_aces_pre_yo
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February 9, 2016 - 10:15 pm
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ty sigaba 🙂 

SIGABA
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February 9, 2016 - 11:07 pm
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OK good it was helpful then.  YW 🙂

florianm1
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February 10, 2016 - 6:55 am
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folding_aces_pre_yo said
ty sigaba 🙂 

by now you should really invest some of your winnings for holdemresources or icmizer.

or better CREV

folding_aces_pre_yo
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February 10, 2016 - 7:10 am
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Sigaba, I’ve taken a look at the push/fold ranges and they seem pretty wide! For instance with 10% antes in play and from UTG with 15bb it shows that we should be shoving with 10.4% of hands which is 88+ A9s+ A5s AJo+ KTs+ KQo QTs+ JTs+. I’d usually shove tighter then this , 66+ AJo+ KQs, sometimes i’d shove weaker hands if i were on a tough table. Basically i’d want to play gto/nash vs better players rather then weaker , i dont mind taking a break even spot or even slightly less then break even vs tougher opponents. By playing nash ranges it allows us to break even no matter how our opponents play against us. It would be more profitable for us though to play an exploitative strategy.

 

who created the ranges that you linked btw? 😛

folding_aces_pre_yo
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February 10, 2016 - 7:12 am
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@florian , I used to use ICMizer , great tool! but yeah i agree 🙂

joelshitshow
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February 14, 2016 - 7:36 pm
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If I understand this correctly, you should shove wider than Nash because people call too tightly. Therefore, more shoves get through.

folding_aces_pre_yo
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February 15, 2016 - 7:52 pm
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how tight/wide are you shoving from UTG joel with around 15bigs?

joelshitshow
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February 16, 2016 - 10:08 pm
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I’m just working off my old SNG chart that I always think I have memorized until it’s time to need it 🙂 It says TT+ ATs+ AQo+ KJs+, but I try to widen it to 88+, suited broadways, A9s AJo+ KQo. There are 2 alterations to that:

*If I’m in over my head (let’s say deeper in a bigger tournament for me) I’ll be a little wider (unsuited broadways, a few more suited aces, 77)

*If I feel like I have an edge over the table (good table draw or early enough that I don’t know but maybe haven’t been running well), I’ll be an optimist and wait another orbit or two.

That’s all for brick and mortar. I’m a little more stubborn online with push/fold and would defer to my HUD back in the day. When I play online in Nevada I look at my notes because WSOP.com doesn’t allow HUDs.

SIGABA
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February 17, 2016 - 10:57 am
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Hey London.  I’m not sure who made that push fold chart.  I’m guessing a girl named Jennifer, but I don’t know.  lol.

 

Joel … you asked about the shoving ranges?  If the video didn’t explain it very well, here is a spot where Daryl Jace explained it on Podcast:  

Scroll down to “Episode 46 with Daryl Jace”

Fast forward to 1:31:00

He talks about these spots for several minutes

…..podcast-2/

florianm1
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February 18, 2016 - 3:36 am
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it seems like none of the posters above really looks at the charts the way they should. 

These charts are all generated as a rough guideline on what is close to shove from a nash equilibrium point of view.

creating charts like that are not taking some very important factors into the decision (except for HU charts).

 

the most important factor they leave out are the stack distributions at the table. The ranges change quite significantly if there is a 2BB stack in SB/BB or if the stack in SB/BB has 100BB.

so the true nash range can only be calculated with a program like holdem resources or ICMizer. Doing a lot of these calculations over and over again in combination with the charts will develop your shortstack play. 

further they do not take players tendencies into account. I general players a re calling too tight thus it allows us to shove a bit wider especially from LP or it also allows us to r/f from LP with the weakest part of our shoving range and r/c with the top part.

so here is the strategy i use for my off the table analysis shoving:

1.) guess a shoving range and visualize it using Flopzilla

2.) compare the shoving range to my chart (created using holdem resources and stored as bookmarks in my browser) and adjust range above

3.) analyze hand in holdem resources with actual stack distribution. compare range to range generated in 1+2

4.) modify calling ranges and see how shoving ranges change.

 

and here is the strategy i use for my off the table analysis calling a shove:

1.) guess a calling range and visualize it using Flopzilla

2.) compare the calling range to my chart (created using holdem resources and stored as bookmarks in my browser) and adjust range above

3.) analyze hand in holdem resources with actual stack distribution. compare range to range generated in 1+2

4.) calculate ev of actual hand vs likely shoving range and see if its still +EV

 

hope this helps sharpen your short stack kung fu

folding_aces_pre_yo
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February 20, 2016 - 10:59 am
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@sigaba , lol okay man 🙂

@florian, nice post!

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