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October 21, 2012
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Merge Network $4K Gtd – [2R/1A] No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t300.00/t600.00 Blinds + t75.00 – 7 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
Hero (SB): BB = 26.3, t15773
BB: BB = 51.4, t30839
UTG: BB = 60.2, t36140
UTG+1: BB = 32.8, t19700
MP: BB = 13.3, t7979
CO: BB = 17.2, t10320
BTN: BB = 15.7, t9394
Pre Flop: (t1425) Hero is SB with J
J
UTG raises to t1350.00, 2 folds, CO calls t1350, 1 fold, Hero ?
CO is a one of the best regs on Merge flatting with a 17bb stack.
October 6, 2010
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against an unknown i shove here all day every day, but if you have the reads that this guy is one of the best regs, this all of a sudden looks super scary.
nit fold could be in order.
November 30, 2012
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So his range here is AA specificly? I would have to have a extreemly solid read to fold here.
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July 7, 2012
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I agree with both Benny and Nqon (sitting on fence lol). Serioulsy though, my first reaction was why the post? Looks like a great spot for 3bet jam. But then you mention the solid reg flatt 17bbs, which stinks of strength hoping for a squeeze.
Is flatting an option here, effectively to set mine and keep UTG in the hand as well?
November 30, 2012
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Assuming we get paid off 100% of sets, we have the odds. If he has AA he is not folding for that stack, so we only need 1:8, we have to call 1050, leaving us 9000 so we’re good, but this is not taking in acount the times we flop a set but still loose. Either way i find it a bit silly giving his call a range consisting of only AA, I assume it can be done, but I think it’s so unusual and rare that it’s not worth it. If your read is so good you fold, trust your gut, but im not doing it simply because he is a good reg flatting with a 17bb stack.
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October 21, 2012
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“Either way i find it a bit silly giving his call a range consisting of only AA”
Me too, which why I would include KK in it as well. If I was feeling really crazy, I could throw in JJ, QQ, AJ+ and it still wouldnt be a shove. Flatting may be the best play here.
November 30, 2012
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Oki- What are you basing your read on? If he is decent he should never be flatting AJ+ or jj/qq. How many hands do you have with him and how many times have you seen him flatting his monsters? If you know it’s his go to line with those hands and that he shoves the rest, ok, you make a soulfold, but I think youll end up leveling yourself and missing a ton of value by not shoving here 100% of the time. That were discussing setmining with jj with 17bb stack is to me absurd.
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October 21, 2012
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“If he is decent he should never be flatting AJ+ or jj/qq”
Right. So given that and the fact that not only is he decent, but he is one of the best regs on the site, there is no range for which JJ is a shove.
Flatting is meh. I dont mind a fold, but shoving is pretty bad even against me and im a bottom barrel reg on a bottom barrel site. I personally would have KK+ there to induce BTN or SB to squeeze with a range I crush like anything besides KK+.
October 6, 2010
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Nqon said:
Oki- What are you basing your read on? If he is decent he should never be flatting AJ+ or jj/qq. How many hands do you have with him and how many times have you seen him flatting his monsters? If you know it's his go to line with those hands and that he shoves the rest, ok, you make a soulfold, but I think youll end up leveling yourself and missing a ton of value by not shoving here 100% of the time. That were discussing setmining with jj with 17bb stack is to me absurd.
if he is decent, he shouldnt be flatting LESS than the range you mentioned – with his stack he shouldnt be flatting here ever UNLESS it is to induce, which is certainly possible.
i agree with not setmining btw, i think its a close fold given the read that he is a good reg, and a instashove readless
July 7, 2012
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Just to set the record straight, when I mentioned flatting with JJ here, I was mostly interested in the UTG stack and a potential double with the bonus of picking up the 17bb stack as well if he does indeed have a monster and we make a set. Effectively we treat our hand as 22+, if our read on shortstack flat is a monster.
November 30, 2012
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Still bigblind left to act so you might not get to see the flop, but it’s highly likely.
But i feel like this comes down to: Can we credit a very good winning reg to never flat here without a monster? I think it might br close, but I would need more information than that he is good, i need specific examples that actually relates to this situation.
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October 21, 2012
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A misclick is possible, but other than that I think we can credit a very good winning reg to never flat here without a monster. I guess we could ask ourselves “Do we expect any of the TPE pros or even some of the seasoned TPE members to have less than KK+ here?” We have access to the playing styles of many winning regs, both pro and non-pro, which is one of the reasons I love this site.
As far as this hand, I was multitabling and fell victim to the “JJ with 25bb=snap 3bet shove mentality” (which is correct 99% of the time) and didnt even notice who the flatter was. I guess for future reference I could note that he showed up with KK here. I think a better approach would have been for me to pay attention to who he was and actually put him on a range so that I could have avoided that mistake in the first place.
July 3, 2010
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Who's the reg in question? No harm in saying it and might get you better replies.
October 21, 2012
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Bustnuts
But regardless of who it is, it's hard to find a range that JJ is ahead of if they are good.
October 6, 2010
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just a word of advice – next time make the title of the thread something that doesnt give an incidation of the results, as it could mean that it biases people's replies
November 30, 2012
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UTG can have a WIDE range opening here because of his stack. I can see a decent regular calling here if he has some kind of read on UTG, knows he check folds, knows his c-bet sizing tells or gets it in with second pair on flops or that he is calling his shove with A2s etc or whatever the case might be. I think I would need to have a note that says “flats with monster with <20bb (x2)” and that I know he is traphappy and even then I think it's up for discussion.
That he is a highly winning regular is not enough to go on (at least for me).
It's sucks for you that he had KK, but that doesn't matter, I can't believe I'm alone in thinking this.
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October 21, 2012
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“I can see a decent regular calling here if he has some kind of read on UTG”
I actually like that play with that read if he is the BB.
But he is in CO. I just dont think a top reg is opening himself up to squeezes or overcalls like that with 17bb and two reshove stacks behind. As a matter of fact, a top reg is even more likely to flat here with KK+ with two reshove stacks behind. If im in CO and I think the guy will call with A2 then im shoving all my small to mid pairs and Axs preflop.
I only mention that he had KK in this instance in case anyone wants to shove and make a note for later. That’s what I did in the past. Im trying to get better in the future so im starting to try to look at all the information available to me in addition to past hands.
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