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Shallow Tournament play - Shoving stack sizes, do they change?
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Liverpool015
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September 14, 2012 - 9:21 am
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Hey TPE Nation,

In my quest on trying to build a bigger bankroll i have been playing the 180 men tournaments on stars. Mainly the 2.50 180 men turbos and a few 3.50r turbo ones. However what i have found is that deepish into tournys that often the average stacks become under 10BB. Now when i get below under 10bb im basically shoving most of my range, but when your average stack is that the correct thing to do?

For instance, in a 3.50 rebuy turbo, 21 players left. Im currently sitting 7th with 9BB, average stack is 8BB. Im UTG with A9, what do i do? Now in most tournys this is an instant ship for me, im under 10BB with an Ace and decent kicker. However in this tourny im above average stack, so is shoving this the correct play or is folding?What if i had AJ, or mid pairs?

In these tournys should we be changing our shove stack range to like 5-6BB?

Am interested to know what everyones thoughts are in situations like this.

Thanks guys

Bytie_nl
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September 14, 2012 - 10:00 am
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Fact of the matter is that the situation you describe is a phase of the tourney, when in fact it becomes a crapshoot. It seems that skill will matter less and less, save for one thing only: a good push/fold strategy. (and maybe picking on weak opponents to increase steal success)

Allthough icm considerations start kicking in more and more when deep, I still think that a good push/fold strategy might be one of the few edges left for you in those spots.

So my initial response is to try to

1. steal blinds and antes with hands you are prepared to shove lighter on those stacks, preferrable in late position.

2. Try to double up and tighten up AFTER that succeeds as most others will be obliged to gamble and you are temporarily off the hook. In any case, I do not see any  advantage in getting into hands and than folding vs agression..

You might try to pick on guys specifically whom you have seen folding incorrectly respective to their stacks.

What remains is, that the tools you have at hand as a poker player in those circumstances, are severely limited. So playing toerneys that are less of a crapshoot are of more advantage for skilled players imho. Unless you specialise in perfect push/fold and make THAT your edge next to playing big volumes of these.. As big volume is the only thing that will bend the variance blows into +EV if you have to rely on the push/fold strategy almost exclusively.

Bytie_nl
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September 14, 2012 - 10:33 am
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In the end, imo, playing good structured mtt/sng will render a better roi, due to you being able to use other skill tools.

A good player will often come deep in tourneys (more than worse players) but it still takes luck to win it as (multiple) flips are inevitable at some points during the run to binkage 🙂

So: 1. try bette structures 2. if you must playing th crappers, keep pushin your A9 sir!

glgl!

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MediaBLITZ
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September 14, 2012 - 5:55 pm
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Just had a conversation today with Jonathan Little about this very thing.  Basically he said it just comes down to the math and pushing advantages (emphasis on pushing).  Then he whipped out the Push/Fold Nash Equilibrium chart.

runningouts
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September 15, 2012 - 10:37 am
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I don't have a real response here but would assume that as MediaBLITZ said it's just about optimal push/fold ranges. I used to play a lot of superturbo SNGs on FullTilt, where everyone is obv very shallow/short. In those the shoving/calling ranges there were totally different (super tight utg to any 2 bvb) but that is more to do with ICM being a STT.

duggs
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September 16, 2012 - 3:31 am
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personally i dont think it changes anything, other than changing the stacks behind, being risk averse in a high variance game just doesnt work out that well.

 

(they obv have wider calling ranges but unexploitable +EV, is just that)

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