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SB special, unsure of turn action.
Phoebus
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December 6, 2013 - 11:00 am
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Poker Stars $2.00+$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t150/t300 Blinds + t40 – 9 players – View hand 2374218
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

BobOffenberg (MP1): BB = 86.9, t26074
öhmallgohol (MP2): BB = 19.4, t5824
Splut7 (CO): BB = 28.9, t8663
karalius23 (BTN): BB = 41.6, t12495
Hero (SB): BB = 23.6, t7075
Bephegor (BB): BB = 58.5, t17563
Stiffler1974 (UTG): BB = 65.0, t19504
iKOD (UTG+1): BB = 26.2, t7847
Tenerife1967 (UTG+2): BB = 66.1, t19829

Pre Flop: (t810) Hero is SB with Q of spades 9 of clubs
Stiffler1974 calls t300, 5 folds, karalius23 calls t300, Hero calls t150, Bephegor checks

Flop: (t1560) Q of hearts 5 of spades 3 of hearts (4 players)
Hero checks, Bephegor checks, Stiffler1974 checks, karalius23 bets t600, Hero calls t600, Bephegor folds, Stiffler1974 folds

Turn: (t2760) A of clubs (2 players)
Hero checks, karalius23 bets t11555 all in, Hero folds

Final Pot: t2760
karalius23 wins t2760

 

Do you guys fold pre even with the great odds, Im pretty disciplined about calling from the BB but Im getting such good odds, honestly I think he has a Q here that got scared but I decided to fold anyways and wait for a better spot

derSchwartz
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December 6, 2013 - 11:30 am
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I’m up early so I’ll tell you what I think, but of course you remember I’m no teacher.  

I’m folding this preflop unless the flow of the game suggests otherwise.  This difficult flop is exactly what makes this hand hard to play.

If we choose to play this, I wonder if the argument to raise instead of limp would apply here.  In the JTs hand I asked about from the SB, when I limped, the responses seemed to be a reasonably even decision between raising to take it down and limping to see a flop, more towards raising though. This hand seems reasonably similar, except I feel this hand might be even better to raise than call (if we play) because it doesn’t have quite as strong of flopping capacities.

JTs is near the bottom of where I was playing (whether figuring to call or raise) from the SB and Q9s seems near the top of where I’m currently folding in this spot.

Poking_Fun
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December 6, 2013 - 11:58 am
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There is no harm in folding this preflop as you can be dominated by players limping with hands like JQ, QT etc but I think I would probably flick it in and see a flop given the pot odds and the fact that most limpers will have very weak hands. You just have to be fairly cautious postflop.

The flop Q53 is probably one of the best you can hope for. In this spot I would keep it simple in an unraised pot and lead out for about 1/2 pot. When you lead in a spot like this I think the other players are going to play pretty honestly. You are leading into 3 players so they must think you have a Q in your hand at least for made hands. For non made hands they probably put you on flush draws. Obviously, if called I would then try to check it down unless I improved further. If raised, I would mostly fold as we beat nothing other than a flush draw but are going to have to pay a lot to find out.

As played the A is a bad card for you. Loads of limpers do so with A rag type hands especially suited. There is really no reason for villain to jam with a Q as he has showdown value in position so I suspect this is a weak ace or maybe ace rag that has made 2 pair that is jamming to “protect” their hand. It may be a flush draw as well or some kind of straight draw I guess but I'm never interested in paying to find out in these spots. Just fold, make a note that villain likes to overjam and hope to get a similar situation when you are strong and snap him off.

Phoebus
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December 6, 2013 - 12:01 pm
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Yeah it definitely makes the hand hard to play, because you dont know where you are at because no one bet to give any information.

 

It might still be profitable to call and proceed only if you hit two pair or better.

WizardZur
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December 6, 2013 - 1:30 pm
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I may be a “spewer” but there is precisely 0% chance that I fold this hand pre-flop, given the lucrative odds.  Other people may advocate folding given the potential for domination, and they are prudent, but I'm not one of them.  However, if you are going to play this style it is absolutely paramount to realize that you are doing so because of the lucrative odds in flopping a monster (2 pair or a straight) and trapping an unsuspecting opponent who will overplay a single pair.  While this flop in the abstract is in the top 1/3 of possible flops for your hand, strategically it is a bad flop, as lots of hands still beat you, but you are only ahead of a flush draw.  Despite this, I don't like the check.  If you are going to call a bet, you should just bet yourself as that adds fold equity.  If reraised, I'm just folding, but you must charge the flush draw specifically.  I'd probably bet 750 to take it down, but if there is any further action, and I don't improve I will just give up on the hand.  As played, the Ace is a bad card for our hand.  Our opponent is likely to have an Ace as the flop bet was not significant enough to chase out an over.  It is also possible they have Aheartxheart and just hit one of their outs.  I can see an opponent making a move like this with a flush draw, representing the Ace.  But if we call we are simply guessing in a bad spot so I just fold.  Keep in mind that even though we lost money in this spot, we lost the minimum, and I believe that is worth it because next time you may just show up with two pair+ and stack your opponent in a similar spot.  It's like fishing.  You put a little worm on a pole and sometimes you just lose the worm and waste your time, but sometimes you do catch the fish.  You're not playing that hand for its 1 pair value, you're playing it because you have lucrative odds to flop a monster, and stack the fish.      

Phoebus
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December 6, 2013 - 1:54 pm
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Good point, thats the line Ill be taking next time.

 

Raise flop, get out of the way if there is any continued interest from opponents.

derSchwartz
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December 6, 2013 - 2:07 pm
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WizardZur said:

I may be a “spewer” but there is precisely 0% chance that I fold this hand pre-flop, given the lucrative odds.  Other people may advocate folding given the potential for domination, and they are prudent, but I'm not one of them.  However, if you are going to play this style it is absolutely paramount to realize that you are doing so because of the lucrative odds in flopping a monster (2 pair or a straight) and trapping an unsuspecting opponent who will overplay a single pair.  While this flop in the abstract is in the top 1/3 of possible flops for your hand, strategically it is a bad flop, as lots of hands still beat you, but you are only ahead of a flush draw.  Despite this, I don't like the check.  If you are going to call a bet, you should just bet yourself as that adds fold equity.  If reraised, I'm just folding, but you must charge the flush draw specifically.  I'd probably bet 750 to take it down, but if there is any further action, and I don't improve I will just give up on the hand.  As played, the Ace is a bad card for our hand.  Our opponent is likely to have an Ace as the flop bet was not significant enough to chase out an over.  It is also possible they have Aheartxheart and just hit one of their outs.  I can see an opponent making a move like this with a flush draw, representing the Ace.  But if we call we are simply guessing in a bad spot so I just fold.  Keep in mind that even though we lost money in this spot, we lost the minimum, and I believe that is worth it because next time you may just show up with two pair+ and stack your opponent in a similar spot.  It's like fishing.  You put a little worm on a pole and sometimes you just lose the worm and waste your time, but sometimes you do catch the fish.  You're not playing that hand for its 1 pair value, you're playing it because you have lucrative odds to flop a monster, and stack the fish.      

Does that mean call the SB preflop?

Sorry to reply with faulty advice Phoebus.  I would listen to them ;

derSchwartz
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December 6, 2013 - 2:21 pm
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Also, does this mean we are calling the SB preflop and leading out with top pair on the flop even though we're only going for two pair or better on the flop?

WizardZur
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December 6, 2013 - 2:34 pm
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derSchwartz said:

Also, does this mean we are calling the SB preflop and leading out with top pair on the flop even though we're only going for two pair or better on the flop?

By that I mean I’m just not going to commit with TP-9K here.  Yet it doesn’t mean that I’m not leading out.  Only my lead out is more of a probe bet than it is a value bet.  If I get reraised, I’m done.  In other words, I call preflop out of the SB, lead out on flop to 750.

theginger45

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December 6, 2013 - 9:37 pm
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Completing preflop here is mandatory with about 60-70% of hands at least, considering you're getting almost 10:1.

 

I think checking flop is fine since there aren't going to be many 5x or 3x hands that you can get value from, and there will be some stronger Qx hands in their ranges. Obviously we can't fold flop to one bet so call is standard.

On turn, it's just a spot where a herocall is really unnecessary. He's going to have Ax of hearts sometimes when he makes this bet, aces up sometimes, AQ sometimes, or even a weirdly played set that wants to get value from an ace. He might have some flush draws sometimes, but the queen being out there takes away a decent number of the flush draw combos that he would limp pre, and his Ax of hearts combos beat us already. So basically if we're putting him on a flush draw we're hoping he has KJhh, KThh or maybe K9hh (which have an overcard to our pair, meaning they might have 12 outs instead of 9) or JThh/J9hh. That's five combos of hands that we beat which still have outs, and a lot more combos of hands that beat us, against which we may even be drawing dead.

I fold here without a second thought to such a massive bet.

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